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Subject: Re: [xacml] XACML AzApi as part of F2F agenda


I understand that you want to work though a number of XACML 3.0 work 
items - though I would humbly suggest that the value of XACML 3.0
would be much enhanced if an AzApi were standardized and available.

However, I do note that we made the detailed API submission in July to 
the TC. Therefore, I dont feel it should be treated at par with various 
other
suggestions that have not yet been fully detailed or even published to 
the TC. So I would again strongly suggest that the TC find an hour and a 
half
during its three day meeting to discuss this API, before other "future" 
oriented items are discussed.

And, let me give you a small tip as a "standards old-timer". Never 
discuss the next version (3.1) when finalizing the current one. Its the 
best way to
destroy the value of the work you are doing and confuse the market . If 
you are not convinced that we are ready for 3.0 (a major release of the 
standard!), we should simply defer it until we are ready.

Thanks,
prateek
> Hal,
>
> I agree with you that the existing java APIs are not adequate. We have 
> done some work on this as well because of that. I think the 
> "DOM-based" approach, that is defining an API in "pseudo code" if you 
> allow the term, is the right way to go. And I do think this is an 
> important topic. I wouldn't be opposed about doing a Java API as well, 
> but I don't know the IPR/political/etc issues that govern that.
>
> I also think that a F2F is a good place to start off the work. With my 
> earlier email, I just meant that priority should be given to finishing 
> 3.0. I hope, maybe in my dreams, that by the end of day 2 I could post 
> a new draft which could be promoted to CD and public review at the 
> call on Thursday morning. This would leave Thursday free for planning 
> the future.
>
> So, if there is time after, I think we should discuss the Authz API. 
> But only if there is time.
>
> Other post 3.0 topics that I think we could consider if we have time:
>
> - PEP <-> PDP <-> PIP attribute negotiation and retrieval. 
> Architecture. Required protocols. Etc
>
> - Metadata
>
> - Obligation families
>
> - 3.1 core (I have some ideas for how to improve a few things in the 
> core, but they are too controversial for now while we are in feature 
> freeze)
>
> Best regards,
> Erik
>
>
>
> On 2009-12-02 14:33, Harold Lockhart wrote:
>> At this point we are simply looking for an agenda item at the F2F to 
>> discuss a subject which we believe is of great interest to the TC 
>> members.
>>  
>> The subject of whether the API should be standardized by the TC has 
>> never been debated. We believe there are sound technical and 
>> procedural reasons to do so and I would be glad to state them at 
>> length. However it seems to me that this F2F would not be the right 
>> place to do so.
>>  
>> I will post another msg describing the reasons that after extensive 
>> analysis we felt that it was necessary to start afresh rather than 
>> pile yet another layer on the Java permissions model.
>>  
>> Hal
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     *From:* Nataraj Nagaratnam [mailto:natarajn@us.ibm.com]
>>     *Sent:* Tuesday, December 01, 2009 11:21 PM
>>     *To:* Anil Saldhana
>>     *Cc:* xacml@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     *Subject:* Re: [xacml] XACML AzApi as part of F2F agenda
>>
>>     hi Anil
>>
>>     Yes, I fully understand your perspective. Like you said,
>>     standardized api is important and i fully support that. Key is to
>>     make sure developers and all our customers don't have to choose
>>     between multiple standards in Java APIs but use one that is
>>     consistent across vendor community.
>>
>>     To your point of lack of APIs - I think one area is (potential)
>>     lack of full understanding and appreciation of the potential of
>>     JACC. I know that there is a perception that it is only for J2EE
>>     containers. While it is targeted for that, in that JSR wg, we
>>     took efforts to address even callouts from any Java applications
>>     and alignment with J2Se security model as well. We have seen use
>>     cases where it is used in non-container environments.
>>
>>     What might have to be done is to identify requirements so as to
>>     factor that back into JACC instead of inventing another API. Like
>>     Ron responded in another note, doing this analysis is important
>>     so that we work towards addressing collective objective around
>>     standardized apis.
>>
>>
>>     Regards,
>>     Nataraj (raj) Nagaratnam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Inactive hide details for Anil Saldhana ---01/12/2009
>>     11:58:36---Nataraj, While I agree to most of what you said, what
>>     the TC cAnil Saldhana ---01/12/2009 11:58:36---Nataraj, While I
>>     agree to most of what you said, what the TC can deliver on is a
>>
>>
>>     From: 	
>>     Anil Saldhana <Anil.Saldhana@redhat.com>
>>
>>     To: 	
>>     xacml@lists.oasis-open.org
>>
>>     Date: 	
>>     01/12/2009 11:58
>>
>>     Subject: 	
>>     Re: [xacml] XACML AzApi as part of F2F agenda
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>     Nataraj,
>>
>>     While I agree to most of what you said, what the TC can deliver
>>     on is a
>>     language independent API similar to what DOM1 did. Java can be
>>     one of
>>     the bindings.  I was of the feeling that AzApi is along those lines.
>>
>>     Lack of standardized API has been the bane of many of the xacml
>>     implementors.
>>
>>     Regards,
>>     Anil
>>
>>     On 11/30/2009 10:28 PM, Nataraj Nagaratnam wrote:
>>     > Wrt #3 below around Java interfaces --
>>     >
>>     > I am not sure if XACML TC is the right forum to define Java APIs,
>>     > especially when there are Java standard APIs already available
>>     and in use.
>>     > JSR 115/JACC is sufficient in many cases - though it is written
>>     from
>>     > container viewpoint, it is equally applicable to any type of
>>     enforcement
>>     > points (even if it is apps).  If there gaps that should be
>>     addressed in
>>     > JACC, I think we should work that in.  Those APIs are
>>     applicable to Java
>>     > developers who can use it without any knowledge of XACML, or
>>     other means
>>     > that a container may even provide. So it provides that level of
>>     abstraction
>>     > as well.
>>     >
>>     > Regards,
>>     > Nataraj Nagaratnam
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >    From:       Prateek Mishra<prateek.mishra@oracle.com>
>>     >
>>     >    To:         XACML TC<xacml@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>     >
>>     >    Date:       30/11/2009 22:38
>>     >
>>     >    Subject:    [xacml] XACML AzApi as part of F2F agenda
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > I would like to request discussion of the XACML AzApi during
>>     the F2F, as
>>     > we continue to work to advance this towards standard status.
>>     >
>>     > The API submission we made this past summer, has a number of
>>     features
>>     > would benefit from the TCs review -
>>     >
>>     > 1) Use of generics and a highly factored design to allow for new
>>     > categories and types of attributes. Is this adequate
>>     > to model the new materials in XACML 3.0 and other XACML use-cases?
>>     >
>>     > 2) A concept called "what is allowed" - which supports a
>>     limited but
>>     > extremely valuable form of scoped query against
>>     > access rules. One question is how this can be modeled or
>>     implemented in
>>     > the XACML 2.0/3.0 context
>>     >
>>     > 3) Based on experience with the open source and our internal
>>     review of
>>     > the API, we are planning to submit some additional
>>     > interfaces to the XACML TC within the next couple of weeks. The
>>     main
>>     > purpose of these interfaces is to allow Java developers with little
>>     > knowledge of XACML
>>     > to utilize the API. We would like to be able to describe these
>>     > interfaces in some detail to the TC, together with
>>     > the rationale for their introduction.
>>     >
>>     > I would request the Chairs to allocate an hour and half for these
>>     > discussions, which would be led by Rich Levinson (he is out
>>     today - but
>>     > I thought
>>     > it important to get this message out to the chairs and TC).
>>     >
>>     > Thanks,
>>     >
>>     > - prateek
>>
>>
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