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Subject: Re: [xacml] Minutes for 2 December 2010 TC Meeting


comments corrections

On 02/12/2010 22:59, Rich.Levinson wrote:
> Time: 13:00 ET
> Tel: 513-241-0892 Access Code: 65998
>
> Minutes for 2 December 2010 TC Meeting:
>
> 13:00 - 13:05 Roll Call & Approve Minutes:
>
>
> have quorum
>
> voting
> Hal Lockhart
> Bill Parducci
> Rich Levinson
> John Davis
> David Staggs
> Erik Rissanen
> Paul Tyson
> Gareth Richards
>
> non-voting
> Doron Grinstein
> Sridhar Muppidi
> David Chadwick
> Jan Herrmann
>
> Voting Members: 8 of 12 (66%)
>
> Approve Minutes:
> 18 November 2010 TC Meeting (updated)
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00015.html
>
> hal: minutes approved no objections
>
> XACML v3 Status:
> 1 attestation received to date
>
> New Issues:
>
> Carrying any Policies:
> david original issue:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00051.html
> erik comment:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00052.html
>
> hal: starting on 3.0 decided admin policy model, additional
> policies could come effective only for one request.
> decided to make that part of saml wire protocol, not core;
> embedded pdps would probably have proprietary
> last year, chgd core schema to allow other policies in
> policy element, but rejected that, but decided to put
> extension point in wire protocol, there for can put
> in policies in non-xacml format;
>
> david: using that extension points

DEL and obligations in transfer request DEL

> and obl is in response and can submit

Sticky

policies to
> the pdp.
>
>
>
> Draft BTG Profile (Break The Glass):
> david original issue:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00017.html
> much discussion on this issue - these links point to Nov, Dec:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/maillist.html
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201012/maillist.html
>
>
> hal: many emails on btg proposal;
>
> david: couple issues:
> 1. model: what is btg; helpful msg from john w use cases
> user is granted access, denied access, denied but can btg, 4th case

is elevation of privileges

>
> seth impl w/o altering pdp; david has also impl it;
> want to define std way; pdp to understand btg; make it
> easier for infrastructure; state-based,
> protocol info is transferred in std way
>
> issues around is there a btg operation?
> how does pdp/ch take into acct that this is btg resp
>
> suggestion on list is that it is obl; what profile
> could do is define obl called "btg"

which is added to deny response

, pep understands
> and enforces, if pep doesn't understand

then stays as deny

; happy w that
> as soln.
>
> any objections? none heard. this is just a "sign" that
> some people are ok and no one explicitly not ok
>
> will produce 2nd version of profile
>
> people he's talked to agree there are 2 actions:
>
> 1. am I entitled to btg?
> 2. am I entitled to open the fire door
>
> once you have done btg, then 2nd obl
>
> 1. make req, rsp says btg reqd
>
> 2. make req for btg permission, rsp says ok + obl
>
> 3. make original req w btg perm.
>
> mike davis: still discussing: the presence of a permission
> that a user has btg is not what they are looking for;
> info is protected by sensitivity issue
> asserting that user has permission is not btg
>
> david: user

??? not sure what user refers to??

> mike: auth attr is a perm;
>
> david: if condition is fulfilled (btg), you get access ow no.
>
> mike: sent out email today - incl a number of core defns
> w use case w policy, walks thru in some detail;
>
> doron from bitkoo: from experiments done, bloody knuckles; just an
> obligation w permit, need to present condition; if real
> emergency if remote, need to work autonomously; return
> permit w obl. fin trans: mgr override; special loan ovrd.
>
> analogy of x500 vs ldap; success of ldap is simplicity;
> keep lang simple, let people use as needed;
>
> david: agrees that btg and override are similar
>
> doron : permit w obl
>
> david: deny w obl

on initial access request

  then permit w obl

on request to btg

, and user has option
> to do it or not.
>
> doron: human is another input device; pdp is not human
> aware, it has helpers like pip to intermediate w human;
>
> david:

agreed

> mike: agree w "mode c", have different view on override and
> bypass;   canadians agree, but bypass on purpose and system
> is insecure state; btg is runtime attr asserted, not already resident in
> pdp; screen warning and user asserts
> they want to btg, then user submits that attr to policy
> and it


Aside. David after reading Mike's email agrees that BTG and bypass are 
different modes.

>
> doron: would you want to be in burning room where you had
> to ask the door if you could leave
>
> mike: emergency is different than btg; in healthcare is condition where
> there is threat to safety; never kill
> patients to protect their data; every vertical has one;
> another: never impose security that impedes cash flow;
> rather lose a few free videos than stop the revenue.
>
> mike: in emergence case you can elevate your permissions
> to deal w emergency; define purposes of use to acct
> for different policy context;
> david: thinks there is agreement on distinction between
> btg and emergency;
>
> doctors can btg. doctors can access rec if btg is true.
> same term used for 2 things; perf action to get attr
> to get access;
>
> mike: if you have role of clinician; don't want to open
> back channel to get info; as a role to start with;
>
> hal: need to get clear on defns before submitting recommendations;
> what is scope of btg? if set fire alarm, it applies to
> everyone, but this sounds more particular, is that a btg
> user for good or is it temporary;

David. Not everyone can set fire alarm e.g. children

>
> mike: latest email addresses these questions; these things
> are defined or can change defns;
>
> jan: sounds like only certain people can btg?
>
> mike: no: can constrain to subset users;

that should be Yes, can....

regards

David

>
> david: thinks only diff now is if pdp is involved.
>
> hal: next step?
>
> david: critical point of disagreement is btg "permission"
> wrt "rbac" model; diff in hotel case; it is public access
> permission; in hospital attr restricted to "professionals".
>
> hal: lot of raising dynamic roles; how are these cases
> different
>
> paul: analogy breaks down when restricting btg to certain
> users; if restricted then its not btg
>
> hal: on PIP access what is status
>
> david: postpone to next mtg; still active;
>
> jan: nothing to report on wsdl at this point - not defined
> where context handler is implemented?
>
> hal: deliberately left details unspecified. saml profile
> effectively requires 2 chs to build message then to process
> the msg.
>
> hal: please continue discussion on the list;
>
> doron from bitkoo: have one attestation, looking to provide
> a 2nd one for 3.0; for xacml 2 there are use cases; is there
> something for 3.0?
>
> erik: has some test cases to donate;
>
> hal: bill will post location of current test cases.
>
> adjourned 2:00 PM
> next call Dec 16.
>
>
>
> Ongoing Issues:
>
> Attribute Assertions in XACML request
> paul original issue:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201010/msg00012.html
> greg comment (rich submitted on greg's behalf):
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00001.html
> rich comment:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00016.html
> greg response:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00024.html
> franz response:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00044.html
> paul response:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00033.html
> greg providing more context on issue:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00025.html
>
>
> PIP directive (carried over from previous meeting)
> Discussion of emails at 11/18 meeting was postponed pending
> interested parties in attendance.
> David Chadwick has raised the concept of additional processing
> associated with PDP <-> PIP interaction:
> david original:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201010/msg00005.html
> rich comment:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201010/msg00013.html
> david response:
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201010/msg00015.html
>
>
> WSDL for v3.0 (carried over from previous meeting)
> Jan volunteered to investigate at 11/18 mtg
> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xacml/201011/msg00012.html
>
>
>
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-- 

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David W. Chadwick, BSc PhD
Professor of Information Systems Security
School of Computing, University of Kent, Canterbury, CT2 7NF
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