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Subject: Re: [xri] XRD and JSON
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I don't think that Xauth has the concept of looking for things by =
service yet.
You cant ask for all of the persons openID providers, you have to ask =
for the token of a specific extender.
Is this so that the extender can push a JSON XRD to allow the JS to =
search by service/rel?
I have concerns about the privacy issues as well, but that is for a =
different forum.
John B.
On 2010-04-22, at 6:45 PM, Will Norris wrote:
> right now, we're looking at formats for storing data in an XAuth =
payload. Certainly, one very simple thing could be flag that states =
"this user has an active session at Google", and nothing more. But you =
could just as easily store links to various service providers. =20
>=20
> So when I login to Google, it stores a small XRD in XAuth that =
includes a link:
> link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "http://picasaweb.google.com/"; }
>=20
> And then when I sign in to Yahoo, it also adds a link:
> link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "http://flickr.com/"; }
>=20
> And then when I go to some printing service, it can prompt me to =
import my photos from Flickr or Picasa.
>=20
> there are huge potential privacy implications around this, so I don't =
know if it will even fly. Certainly, a lot of thought has to go into =
exactly what data should be stored, who should have access, how access =
is actually controlled, etc. But conceptually, the kind of data that =
could be stored in XAuth is identical to what is stored in a user's XRD. =
It makes a lot of sense to try and re-use XRD (or some flavor of it) =
rather than invent something new. It's a small step towards a rich =
identity-aware user agent, but using the tools we have today.
>=20
> I'm not completely clear on how the access controls work, either for =
reading or writing data, but what I've heard has lead me to believe that =
the data does not necessarily need to be signed.
>=20
> -will
>=20
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM, John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> =
wrote:
> Can you explain the initial use case a bit for us?
>=20
> John B.
>=20
> On 2010-04-22, at 5:45 PM, Will Norris wrote:
>=20
>> you either have:
>> 1) a no-brainer method of switching between XML and JSON like =
JsonML, and then have to do some work to get the JSON into the right =
logical object, or
>> 2) a no-brainer JSON format that can be used as-is, and you have to =
do a little work to switch between the XML and JSON formats
>>=20
>> It's just a matter of which one you want to optimize for.
>>=20
>> Signatures are of course an issue, and I don't really have an answer =
for that. The immediate use-case we're looking at wouldn't necessarily =
need signatures, though.
>>=20
>> -will
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:25 PM, John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> =
wrote:
>> I am still trying to understand the use case.
>>=20
>> Having multiple discovery formats each requiring separate processing =
is not optimal.
>>=20
>> Being able to transform from one to the other may have advantages.
>>=20
>> I am speculating that the Google wants a discovery format that can be =
entirely parsed with JS inside the browser.
>>=20
>> I am not personally religious about XML.=20
>>=20
>> If a JSON format that can be transformed into the equivalent XML XRD =
can be specified that may be a useful work product for the TC.
>>=20
>> My main concerns are around signatures if this starts being used on =
the server as well as in the browser.
>>=20
>> The Google seems to have decided this week that going outside the =
existing standards development process is more efficient.
>> I would prefer that this not result in competing discovery standards.
>>=20
>> It is worth discussing, but at the end of the day Google may need to =
do what it needs to do.
>>=20
>> John B.
>>=20
>> On 2010-04-22, at 3:04 PM, Will Norris wrote:
>>=20
>>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Scott Cantor <cantor.2@osu.edu> =
wrote:
>>> > JsonML does a far better job than some other similar utilities =
I've seen,
>>> so
>>> > that is certainly nice. And for it's stated goals of providing a =
compact
>>> > format for transporting XML, it works great. But that kind of =
misses the
>>> > point of using JSON, which is to provide an natural representation =
of the
>>> > object, not just a document.
>>>=20
>>> I think the document is the natural representation. A simple layer =
of code
>>> addresses whatever limitations might exist in the language that's =
purporting
>>> to be too difficult to use the document in.
>>>=20
>>> But as a matter of specification, the problem you have is that, like =
SAML,
>>> there's an explicit characterization of the notion of an XRD as =
being XML.
>>> If it's not XML, it's not an XRD. I have not seen a simple way =
around that.
>>>=20
>>> A separate specification can be created to establish an interchange =
format
>>> in some other encoding with a different label attached to it, but if =
the
>>> goal here was to allow for non-XML representations of an XRD, it =
would
>>> require some fairly big changes that I'm pretty comfortable saying =
nobody
>>> wants to take on.
>>>=20
>>> certainly, I wasn't meaning to suggest a departure of any kind from =
how XRD is defined today. I've been quite upfront from the beginning of =
my involvement with this TC that I view XRD (as it's specified) solely =
as an XML format, and if you want something else, then do it yourself. =
Well, now Google is sort of doing it ourselves, and we figured that if =
others end up wanting to do the same, it might be good to have agreement =
on what that JSON format looks like. That could just be a whitepaper, a =
best practice guide, or whatever. It certainly doesn't have to be a =
product of this TC, I just thought I would see if it was anything folks =
had any interest in it.
>>>=20
>>> -will
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I =
don't think that Xauth has the concept of looking for things by service =
yet.<div><br></div><div>You cant ask for all of the persons openID =
providers, you have to ask for the token of a specific =
extender.</div><div><br></div><div>Is this so that the extender can push =
a JSON XRD to allow the JS to search by =
service/rel?</div><div><br></div><div>I have concerns about the privacy =
issues as well, but that is for a different =
forum.</div><div><br></div><div>John B.<br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at =
6:45 PM, Will Norris wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite">right now, =
we're looking at formats for storing data in an XAuth payload. =
Certainly, one very simple thing could be flag that states "this =
user has an active session at Google", and nothing more. But you =
could just as easily store links to various service providers. =
<div>
<br></div><div>So when I login to Google, it stores a small XRD in XAuth =
that includes a link:<div> link: { rel: "photo-service", =
href: "<a =
href=3D"http://picasaweb.google.com/";>http://picasaweb.google.com/</a>" =
}</div>
<div><br></div><div>And then when I sign in to Yahoo, it also adds a =
link:</div><div> link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "<a =
href=3D"http://flickr.com/";>http://flickr.com/</a>" =
}</div><div><br></div><div>
And then when I go to some printing service, it can prompt me to import =
my photos from Flickr or Picasa.</div><div><br></div><div>there are huge =
potential privacy implications around this, so I don't know if it will =
even fly. Certainly, a lot of thought has to go into exactly what =
data should be stored, who should have access, how access is actually =
controlled, etc. But conceptually, the kind of data that could be stored =
in XAuth is identical to what is stored in a user's XRD. It makes =
a lot of sense to try and re-use XRD (or some flavor of it) rather than =
invent something new. It's a small step towards a rich =
identity-aware user agent, but using the tools we have today.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'm not completely clear on how the access controls =
work, either for reading or writing data, but what I've heard has lead =
me to believe that the data does not necessarily need to be =
signed.</div>
<div><br></div><div>-will</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM, John Bradley <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com";>jbradley@mac.com</a>></span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Can you explain the initial use case =
a bit for us?<div><br></div><div>John B.<div><div></div><div =
class=3D"h5"><br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at 5:45 PM, Will Norris =
wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">
you either have:<div> 1) a no-brainer method of switching =
between XML and JSON like JsonML, and then have to do some work to get =
the JSON into the right logical object, or</div><div> 2) a =
no-brainer JSON format that can be used as-is, and you have to do a =
little work to switch between the XML and JSON formats</div>
<div><br></div><div>It's just a matter of which one you want to optimize =
for.</div><div><br></div><div>Signatures are of course an issue, and I =
don't really have an answer for that. The immediate use-case we're =
looking at wouldn't necessarily need signatures, though.</div>
<div><br></div><div>-will</div><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:25 PM, John Bradley <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">jbradley@mac.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I am still trying to understand the =
use case.<div><br></div><div>Having multiple discovery formats each =
requiring separate processing is not =
optimal.</div><div><br></div><div>Being able to transform from one to =
the other may have advantages.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I am speculating that the Google wants a discovery =
format that can be entirely parsed with JS inside the =
browser.</div><div><br></div><div>I am not personally religious about =
XML. </div><div><br></div>
<div>If a JSON format that can be transformed into the equivalent =
XML XRD can be specified that may be a useful work product for the =
TC.</div><div><br></div><div>My main concerns are around signatures if =
this starts being used on the server as well as in the browser.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The Google seems to have decided this week that =
going outside the existing standards development process is more =
efficient.</div><div>I would prefer that this not result in competing =
discovery standards.</div>
<div><br></div><div>It is worth discussing, but at the end of the day =
Google may need to do what it needs to do.</div><div><br></div><div>John =
B.</div><div><div></div><div><div><br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at 3:04 =
PM, Will Norris wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 22, =
2010 at 10:58 AM, Scott Cantor <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:cantor.2@osu.edu"; =
target=3D"_blank">cantor.2@osu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>> JsonML does a far better job than some other similar utilities =
I've seen,<br>
so<br>
> that is certainly nice. And for it's stated goals of =
providing a compact<br>
> format for transporting XML, it works great. But that kind of =
misses the<br>
> point of using JSON, which is to provide an natural representation =
of the<br>
> object, not just a document.<br>
<br>
</div>I think the document is the natural representation. A simple layer =
of code<br>
addresses whatever limitations might exist in the language that's =
purporting<br>
to be too difficult to use the document in.<br>
<br>
But as a matter of specification, the problem you have is that, like =
SAML,<br>
there's an explicit characterization of the notion of an XRD as being =
XML.<br>
If it's not XML, it's not an XRD. I have not seen a simple way around =
that.<br>
<br>
A separate specification can be created to establish an interchange =
format<br>
in some other encoding with a different label attached to it, but if =
the<br>
goal here was to allow for non-XML representations of an XRD, it =
would<br>
require some fairly big changes that I'm pretty comfortable saying =
nobody<br>
wants to take on.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>certainly, I wasn't =
meaning to suggest a departure of any kind from how XRD is defined =
today. I've been quite upfront from the beginning of my =
involvement with this TC that I view XRD (as it's specified) solely as =
an XML format, and if you want something else, then do it yourself. =
Well, now Google is sort of doing it ourselves, and we =
figured that if others end up wanting to do the same, it might be =
good to have agreement on what that JSON format looks like. That =
could just be a whitepaper, a best practice guide, or whatever. It =
certainly doesn't have to be a product of this TC, I just thought I =
would see if it was anything folks had any interest in it.</div>
<div><br></div><div>-will</div></div>
=
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></di=
v>
=
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></di=
v></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=
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