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Subject: Re: [xri] XRD and JSON


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So it may be better to to say that your use case requires a XRD =
preprocessor that creates a standard JSON object from a XRD (The XRD may =
or may not exist)

The JSON object may need to be optimized differently from XRD.

You have:
1.  Who is the extender  ie Google
2.  What is the users LocalID for the Service/relationship eg ve7jtb
3.  What is the rel  ie Photo sharing=20
4.  What is the Link  eg Flickr

This produces interesting questions about Google asserting information =
for Flikr and Yahoo for Picassa.

So there needs to be a transform of several XRD into JSON objects that =
the browser manipulates and returns another JSON object to the requestor =
based on the results of some query.

The resulting JSON object may be acted upon in the browser by JS from =
the RP or returned to the RP where it may or may not be reconstituted as =
a XRD.

There is an advantage to standardizing the JSON object because multiple =
IdP will be producing them for manipulation by Xauth and Xauth will be =
producing them for multiple RP libraries.

Is that a far synopsis of what you are looking for?

John B.
On 2010-04-22, at 9:03 PM, Will Norris wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 4:52 PM, John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> =
wrote:
> I don't think that Xauth has the concept of looking for things by =
service yet.
>=20
> correct, it doesn't support that yet... we're already looking toward =
future work.
>=20
> =20
> You cant ask for all of the persons openID providers, you have to ask =
for the token of a specific extender.
>=20
> Is this so that the extender can push a JSON XRD to allow the JS to =
search by service/rel?
>=20
> exactly.
>=20
> =20
> I have concerns about the privacy issues as well, but that is for a =
different forum.
>=20
> John B.
> On 2010-04-22, at 6:45 PM, Will Norris wrote:
>=20
>> right now, we're looking at formats for storing data in an XAuth =
payload.  Certainly, one very simple thing could be flag that states =
"this user has an active session at Google", and nothing more.  But you =
could just as easily store links to various service providers. =20
>>=20
>> So when I login to Google, it stores a small XRD in XAuth that =
includes a link:
>>   link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "http://picasaweb.google.com/"; =
}
>>=20
>> And then when I sign in to Yahoo, it also adds a link:
>>   link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "http://flickr.com/"; }
>>=20
>> And then when I go to some printing service, it can prompt me to =
import my photos from Flickr or Picasa.
>>=20
>> there are huge potential privacy implications around this, so I don't =
know if it will even fly.  Certainly, a lot of thought has to go into =
exactly what data should be stored, who should have access, how access =
is actually controlled, etc. But conceptually, the kind of data that =
could be stored in XAuth is identical to what is stored in a user's XRD. =
 It makes a lot of sense to try and re-use XRD (or some flavor of it) =
rather than invent something new.  It's a small step towards a rich =
identity-aware user agent, but using the tools we have today.
>>=20
>> I'm not completely clear on how the access controls work, either for =
reading or writing data, but what I've heard has lead me to believe that =
the data does not necessarily need to be signed.
>>=20
>> -will
>>=20
>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM, John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> =
wrote:
>> Can you explain the initial use case a bit for us?
>>=20
>> John B.
>>=20
>> On 2010-04-22, at 5:45 PM, Will Norris wrote:
>>=20
>>> you either have:
>>>   1) a no-brainer method of switching between XML and JSON like =
JsonML, and then have to do some work to get the JSON into the right =
logical object, or
>>>   2) a no-brainer JSON format that can be used as-is, and you have =
to do a little work to switch between the XML and JSON formats
>>>=20
>>> It's just a matter of which one you want to optimize for.
>>>=20
>>> Signatures are of course an issue, and I don't really have an answer =
for that.  The immediate use-case we're looking at wouldn't necessarily =
need signatures, though.
>>>=20
>>> -will
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:25 PM, John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> =
wrote:
>>> I am still trying to understand the use case.
>>>=20
>>> Having multiple discovery formats each requiring separate processing =
is not optimal.
>>>=20
>>> Being able to transform from one to the other may have advantages.
>>>=20
>>> I am speculating that the Google wants a discovery format that can =
be entirely parsed with JS inside the browser.
>>>=20
>>> I am not personally religious about XML.=20
>>>=20
>>> If a JSON  format that can be transformed into the equivalent XML =
XRD can be specified that may be a useful work product for the TC.
>>>=20
>>> My main concerns are around signatures if this starts being used on =
the server as well as in the browser.
>>>=20
>>> The Google seems to have decided this week that going outside the =
existing standards development process is more efficient.
>>> I would prefer that this not result in competing discovery =
standards.
>>>=20
>>> It is worth discussing, but at the end of the day Google may need to =
do what it needs to do.
>>>=20
>>> John B.
>>>=20
>>> On 2010-04-22, at 3:04 PM, Will Norris wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Scott Cantor <cantor.2@osu.edu> =
wrote:
>>>> > JsonML does a far better job than some other similar utilities =
I've seen,
>>>> so
>>>> > that is certainly nice.  And for it's stated goals of providing a =
compact
>>>> > format for transporting XML, it works great.  But that kind of =
misses the
>>>> > point of using JSON, which is to provide an natural =
representation of the
>>>> > object, not just a document.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think the document is the natural representation. A simple layer =
of code
>>>> addresses whatever limitations might exist in the language that's =
purporting
>>>> to be too difficult to use the document in.
>>>>=20
>>>> But as a matter of specification, the problem you have is that, =
like SAML,
>>>> there's an explicit characterization of the notion of an XRD as =
being XML.
>>>> If it's not XML, it's not an XRD. I have not seen a simple way =
around that.
>>>>=20
>>>> A separate specification can be created to establish an interchange =
format
>>>> in some other encoding with a different label attached to it, but =
if the
>>>> goal here was to allow for non-XML representations of an XRD, it =
would
>>>> require some fairly big changes that I'm pretty comfortable saying =
nobody
>>>> wants to take on.
>>>>=20
>>>> certainly, I wasn't meaning to suggest a departure of any kind from =
how XRD is defined today.  I've been quite upfront from the beginning of =
my involvement with this TC that I view XRD (as it's specified) solely =
as an XML format, and if you want something else, then do it yourself.  =
Well, now Google is sort of doing it ourselves, and we figured that if =
others end up wanting to do the same, it might be good to have agreement =
on what that JSON format looks like.  That could just be a whitepaper, a =
best practice guide, or whatever.  It certainly doesn't have to be a =
product of this TC, I just thought I would see if it was anything folks =
had any interest in it.
>>>>=20
>>>> -will
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">So it =
may be better to to say that your use case requires a XRD preprocessor =
that creates a standard JSON object from a XRD (The XRD may or may not =
exist)<div><br></div><div>The JSON object may need to be optimized =
differently from XRD.</div><div><br></div><div>You have:</div><div>1. =
&nbsp;Who is the extender &nbsp;ie Google</div><div>2. &nbsp;What is the =
users LocalID for the Service/relationship eg ve7jtb</div><div>3. =
&nbsp;What is the rel &nbsp;ie Photo sharing&nbsp;</div><div>4. =
&nbsp;What is the Link &nbsp;eg Flickr</div><div><br></div><div>This =
produces interesting questions about Google asserting information for =
Flikr and Yahoo for Picassa.</div><div><br></div><div>So there needs to =
be a transform of several XRD into JSON objects that the browser =
manipulates and returns another JSON object to the requestor based on =
the results of some query.</div><div><br></div><div>The resulting JSON =
object may be acted upon in the browser by JS from the RP or returned to =
the RP where it may or may not be reconstituted as a =
XRD.</div><div><br></div><div>There is an advantage to standardizing the =
JSON object because multiple IdP will be producing them for manipulation =
by Xauth and Xauth will be producing them for multiple RP =
libraries.</div><div><br></div><div>Is that a far synopsis of what you =
are looking for?</div><div><br></div><div>John B.<br><div><div>On =
2010-04-22, at 9:03 PM, Will Norris wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 4:52 PM, John Bradley =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com";>jbradley@mac.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I don't think that Xauth has the =
concept of looking for things by service =
yet.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>correct, it doesn't support =
that yet... we're already looking toward future work.</div>

<div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>You =
cant ask for all of the persons openID providers, you have to ask for =
the token of a specific extender.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Is this so that the extender can push a JSON XRD to =
allow the JS to search by =
service/rel?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>exactly.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex;">

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>I have concerns about the =
privacy issues as well, but that is for a different =
forum.</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>John =
B.<br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at 6:45 PM, Will Norris wrote:</div>

<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">right now, we're looking at formats for =
storing data in an XAuth payload. &nbsp;Certainly, one very simple thing =
could be flag that states "this user has an active session at Google", =
and nothing more. &nbsp;But you could just as easily store links to =
various service providers. &nbsp;<div>



<br></div><div>So when I login to Google, it stores a small XRD in XAuth =
that includes a link:<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;link: { rel: "photo-service", =
href: "<a href=3D"http://picasaweb.google.com/"; =
target=3D"_blank">http://picasaweb.google.com/</a>" }</div>



<div><br></div><div>And then when I sign in to Yahoo, it also adds a =
link:</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "<a =
href=3D"http://flickr.com/"; target=3D"_blank">http://flickr.com/</a>" =
}</div>

<div><br></div><div>

And then when I go to some printing service, it can prompt me to import =
my photos from Flickr or Picasa.</div><div><br></div><div>there are huge =
potential privacy implications around this, so I don't know if it will =
even fly. &nbsp;Certainly, a lot of thought has to go into exactly what =
data should be stored, who should have access, how access is actually =
controlled, etc. But conceptually, the kind of data that could be stored =
in XAuth is identical to what is stored in a user's XRD. &nbsp;It makes =
a lot of sense to try and re-use XRD (or some flavor of it) rather than =
invent something new. &nbsp;It's a small step towards a rich =
identity-aware user agent, but using the tools we have today.</div>



<div><br></div><div>I'm not completely clear on how the access controls =
work, either for reading or writing data, but what I've heard has lead =
me to believe that the data does not necessarily need to be =
signed.</div>



<div><br></div><div>-will</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM, John Bradley <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">jbradley@mac.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Can you explain the initial use case =
a bit for us?<div><br></div><div>John =
B.<div><div></div><div><br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at 5:45 PM, Will =
Norris wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">



you either have:<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;1) a no-brainer method of switching =
between XML and JSON like JsonML, and then have to do some work to get =
the JSON into the right logical object, or</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;2) a =
no-brainer JSON format that can be used as-is, and you have to do a =
little work to switch between the XML and JSON formats</div>





<div><br></div><div>It's just a matter of which one you want to optimize =
for.</div><div><br></div><div>Signatures are of course an issue, and I =
don't really have an answer for that. &nbsp;The immediate use-case we're =
looking at wouldn't necessarily need signatures, though.</div>





<div><br></div><div>-will</div><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:25 PM, John Bradley <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">jbradley@mac.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>



<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I am still trying to understand the =
use case.<div><br></div><div>Having multiple discovery formats each =
requiring separate processing is not =
optimal.</div><div><br></div><div>Being able to transform from one to =
the other may have advantages.</div>





<div><br></div><div>I am speculating that the Google wants a discovery =
format that can be entirely parsed with JS inside the =
browser.</div><div><br></div><div>I am not personally religious about =
XML.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div>





<div>If a JSON &nbsp;format that can be transformed into the equivalent =
XML XRD can be specified that may be a useful work product for the =
TC.</div><div><br></div><div>My main concerns are around signatures if =
this starts being used on the server as well as in the browser.</div>





<div><br></div><div>The Google seems to have decided this week that =
going outside the existing standards development process is more =
efficient.</div><div>I would prefer that this not result in competing =
discovery standards.</div>





<div><br></div><div>It is worth discussing, but at the end of the day =
Google may need to do what it needs to do.</div><div><br></div><div>John =
B.</div><div><div></div><div><div><br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at 3:04 =
PM, Will Norris wrote:</div>





<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 22, =
2010 at 10:58 AM, Scott Cantor <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cantor.2@osu.edu"; =
target=3D"_blank">cantor.2@osu.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div>&gt; JsonML does a far better job than some other similar utilities =
I've seen,<br>
so<br>
&gt; that is certainly nice. &nbsp;And for it's stated goals of =
providing a compact<br>
&gt; format for transporting XML, it works great. &nbsp;But that kind of =
misses the<br>
&gt; point of using JSON, which is to provide an natural representation =
of the<br>
&gt; object, not just a document.<br>
<br>
</div>I think the document is the natural representation. A simple layer =
of code<br>
addresses whatever limitations might exist in the language that's =
purporting<br>
to be too difficult to use the document in.<br>
<br>
But as a matter of specification, the problem you have is that, like =
SAML,<br>
there's an explicit characterization of the notion of an XRD as being =
XML.<br>
If it's not XML, it's not an XRD. I have not seen a simple way around =
that.<br>
<br>
A separate specification can be created to establish an interchange =
format<br>
in some other encoding with a different label attached to it, but if =
the<br>
goal here was to allow for non-XML representations of an XRD, it =
would<br>
require some fairly big changes that I'm pretty comfortable saying =
nobody<br>
wants to take on.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>certainly, I wasn't =
meaning to suggest a departure of any kind from how XRD is defined =
today. &nbsp;I've been quite upfront from the beginning of my =
involvement with this TC that I view XRD (as it's specified) solely as =
an XML format, and if you want something else, then do it yourself. =
&nbsp;Well, now Google is sort of doing it ourselves, and we =
figured&nbsp;that if others end up wanting to do the same, it might be =
good to have agreement on what that JSON format looks like. &nbsp;That =
could just be a whitepaper, a best practice guide, or whatever. &nbsp;It =
certainly doesn't have to be a product of this TC, I just thought I =
would see if it was anything folks had any interest in it.</div>







<div><br></div><div>-will</div></div>
=
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></di=
v>
=
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></di=
v></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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