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Subject: Re: [xri] XRD and JSON
--Apple-Mail-114--469396200 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-113--469397388 --Apple-Mail-113--469397388 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii So it may be better to to say that your use case requires a XRD = preprocessor that creates a standard JSON object from a XRD (The XRD may = or may not exist) The JSON object may need to be optimized differently from XRD. You have: 1. Who is the extender ie Google 2. What is the users LocalID for the Service/relationship eg ve7jtb 3. What is the rel ie Photo sharing=20 4. What is the Link eg Flickr This produces interesting questions about Google asserting information = for Flikr and Yahoo for Picassa. So there needs to be a transform of several XRD into JSON objects that = the browser manipulates and returns another JSON object to the requestor = based on the results of some query. The resulting JSON object may be acted upon in the browser by JS from = the RP or returned to the RP where it may or may not be reconstituted as = a XRD. There is an advantage to standardizing the JSON object because multiple = IdP will be producing them for manipulation by Xauth and Xauth will be = producing them for multiple RP libraries. Is that a far synopsis of what you are looking for? John B. On 2010-04-22, at 9:03 PM, Will Norris wrote: > On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 4:52 PM, John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> = wrote: > I don't think that Xauth has the concept of looking for things by = service yet. >=20 > correct, it doesn't support that yet... we're already looking toward = future work. >=20 > =20 > You cant ask for all of the persons openID providers, you have to ask = for the token of a specific extender. >=20 > Is this so that the extender can push a JSON XRD to allow the JS to = search by service/rel? >=20 > exactly. >=20 > =20 > I have concerns about the privacy issues as well, but that is for a = different forum. >=20 > John B. > On 2010-04-22, at 6:45 PM, Will Norris wrote: >=20 >> right now, we're looking at formats for storing data in an XAuth = payload. Certainly, one very simple thing could be flag that states = "this user has an active session at Google", and nothing more. But you = could just as easily store links to various service providers. =20 >>=20 >> So when I login to Google, it stores a small XRD in XAuth that = includes a link: >> link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "http://picasaweb.google.com/" = } >>=20 >> And then when I sign in to Yahoo, it also adds a link: >> link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "http://flickr.com/" } >>=20 >> And then when I go to some printing service, it can prompt me to = import my photos from Flickr or Picasa. >>=20 >> there are huge potential privacy implications around this, so I don't = know if it will even fly. Certainly, a lot of thought has to go into = exactly what data should be stored, who should have access, how access = is actually controlled, etc. But conceptually, the kind of data that = could be stored in XAuth is identical to what is stored in a user's XRD. = It makes a lot of sense to try and re-use XRD (or some flavor of it) = rather than invent something new. It's a small step towards a rich = identity-aware user agent, but using the tools we have today. >>=20 >> I'm not completely clear on how the access controls work, either for = reading or writing data, but what I've heard has lead me to believe that = the data does not necessarily need to be signed. >>=20 >> -will >>=20 >> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM, John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> = wrote: >> Can you explain the initial use case a bit for us? >>=20 >> John B. >>=20 >> On 2010-04-22, at 5:45 PM, Will Norris wrote: >>=20 >>> you either have: >>> 1) a no-brainer method of switching between XML and JSON like = JsonML, and then have to do some work to get the JSON into the right = logical object, or >>> 2) a no-brainer JSON format that can be used as-is, and you have = to do a little work to switch between the XML and JSON formats >>>=20 >>> It's just a matter of which one you want to optimize for. >>>=20 >>> Signatures are of course an issue, and I don't really have an answer = for that. The immediate use-case we're looking at wouldn't necessarily = need signatures, though. >>>=20 >>> -will >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:25 PM, John Bradley <jbradley@mac.com> = wrote: >>> I am still trying to understand the use case. >>>=20 >>> Having multiple discovery formats each requiring separate processing = is not optimal. >>>=20 >>> Being able to transform from one to the other may have advantages. >>>=20 >>> I am speculating that the Google wants a discovery format that can = be entirely parsed with JS inside the browser. >>>=20 >>> I am not personally religious about XML.=20 >>>=20 >>> If a JSON format that can be transformed into the equivalent XML = XRD can be specified that may be a useful work product for the TC. >>>=20 >>> My main concerns are around signatures if this starts being used on = the server as well as in the browser. >>>=20 >>> The Google seems to have decided this week that going outside the = existing standards development process is more efficient. >>> I would prefer that this not result in competing discovery = standards. >>>=20 >>> It is worth discussing, but at the end of the day Google may need to = do what it needs to do. >>>=20 >>> John B. >>>=20 >>> On 2010-04-22, at 3:04 PM, Will Norris wrote: >>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Scott Cantor <cantor.2@osu.edu> = wrote: >>>> > JsonML does a far better job than some other similar utilities = I've seen, >>>> so >>>> > that is certainly nice. And for it's stated goals of providing a = compact >>>> > format for transporting XML, it works great. But that kind of = misses the >>>> > point of using JSON, which is to provide an natural = representation of the >>>> > object, not just a document. >>>>=20 >>>> I think the document is the natural representation. A simple layer = of code >>>> addresses whatever limitations might exist in the language that's = purporting >>>> to be too difficult to use the document in. >>>>=20 >>>> But as a matter of specification, the problem you have is that, = like SAML, >>>> there's an explicit characterization of the notion of an XRD as = being XML. >>>> If it's not XML, it's not an XRD. I have not seen a simple way = around that. >>>>=20 >>>> A separate specification can be created to establish an interchange = format >>>> in some other encoding with a different label attached to it, but = if the >>>> goal here was to allow for non-XML representations of an XRD, it = would >>>> require some fairly big changes that I'm pretty comfortable saying = nobody >>>> wants to take on. >>>>=20 >>>> certainly, I wasn't meaning to suggest a departure of any kind from = how XRD is defined today. I've been quite upfront from the beginning of = my involvement with this TC that I view XRD (as it's specified) solely = as an XML format, and if you want something else, then do it yourself. = Well, now Google is sort of doing it ourselves, and we figured that if = others end up wanting to do the same, it might be good to have agreement = on what that JSON format looks like. That could just be a whitepaper, a = best practice guide, or whatever. It certainly doesn't have to be a = product of this TC, I just thought I would see if it was anything folks = had any interest in it. >>>>=20 >>>> -will >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-113--469397388 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">So it = may be better to to say that your use case requires a XRD preprocessor = that creates a standard JSON object from a XRD (The XRD may or may not = exist)<div><br></div><div>The JSON object may need to be optimized = differently from XRD.</div><div><br></div><div>You have:</div><div>1. = Who is the extender ie Google</div><div>2. What is the = users LocalID for the Service/relationship eg ve7jtb</div><div>3. = What is the rel ie Photo sharing </div><div>4. = What is the Link eg Flickr</div><div><br></div><div>This = produces interesting questions about Google asserting information for = Flikr and Yahoo for Picassa.</div><div><br></div><div>So there needs to = be a transform of several XRD into JSON objects that the browser = manipulates and returns another JSON object to the requestor based on = the results of some query.</div><div><br></div><div>The resulting JSON = object may be acted upon in the browser by JS from the RP or returned to = the RP where it may or may not be reconstituted as a = XRD.</div><div><br></div><div>There is an advantage to standardizing the = JSON object because multiple IdP will be producing them for manipulation = by Xauth and Xauth will be producing them for multiple RP = libraries.</div><div><br></div><div>Is that a far synopsis of what you = are looking for?</div><div><br></div><div>John B.<br><div><div>On = 2010-04-22, at 9:03 PM, Will Norris wrote:</div><br = class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div = class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 4:52 PM, John Bradley = <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a = href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com">jbradley@mac.com</a>></span> = wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I don't think that Xauth has the = concept of looking for things by service = yet.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>correct, it doesn't support = that yet... we're already looking toward future work.</div> <div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc = solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>You = cant ask for all of the persons openID providers, you have to ask for = the token of a specific extender.</div> <div><br></div><div>Is this so that the extender can push a JSON XRD to = allow the JS to search by = service/rel?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>exactly.</div><di= v><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc = solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>I have concerns about the = privacy issues as well, but that is for a different = forum.</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>John = B.<br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at 6:45 PM, Will Norris wrote:</div> <br><blockquote type=3D"cite">right now, we're looking at formats for = storing data in an XAuth payload. Certainly, one very simple thing = could be flag that states "this user has an active session at Google", = and nothing more. But you could just as easily store links to = various service providers. <div> <br></div><div>So when I login to Google, it stores a small XRD in XAuth = that includes a link:<div> link: { rel: "photo-service", = href: "<a href=3D"http://picasaweb.google.com/" = target=3D"_blank">http://picasaweb.google.com/</a>" }</div> <div><br></div><div>And then when I sign in to Yahoo, it also adds a = link:</div><div> link: { rel: "photo-service", href: "<a = href=3D"http://flickr.com/" target=3D"_blank">http://flickr.com/</a>" = }</div> <div><br></div><div> And then when I go to some printing service, it can prompt me to import = my photos from Flickr or Picasa.</div><div><br></div><div>there are huge = potential privacy implications around this, so I don't know if it will = even fly. Certainly, a lot of thought has to go into exactly what = data should be stored, who should have access, how access is actually = controlled, etc. But conceptually, the kind of data that could be stored = in XAuth is identical to what is stored in a user's XRD. It makes = a lot of sense to try and re-use XRD (or some flavor of it) rather than = invent something new. It's a small step towards a rich = identity-aware user agent, but using the tools we have today.</div> <div><br></div><div>I'm not completely clear on how the access controls = work, either for reading or writing data, but what I've heard has lead = me to believe that the data does not necessarily need to be = signed.</div> <div><br></div><div>-will</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On = Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 3:20 PM, John Bradley <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a = href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com" = target=3D"_blank">jbradley@mac.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Can you explain the initial use case = a bit for us?<div><br></div><div>John = B.<div><div></div><div><br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at 5:45 PM, Will = Norris wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"> you either have:<div> 1) a no-brainer method of switching = between XML and JSON like JsonML, and then have to do some work to get = the JSON into the right logical object, or</div><div> 2) a = no-brainer JSON format that can be used as-is, and you have to do a = little work to switch between the XML and JSON formats</div> <div><br></div><div>It's just a matter of which one you want to optimize = for.</div><div><br></div><div>Signatures are of course an issue, and I = don't really have an answer for that. The immediate use-case we're = looking at wouldn't necessarily need signatures, though.</div> <div><br></div><div>-will</div><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On = Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:25 PM, John Bradley <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a = href=3D"mailto:jbradley@mac.com" = target=3D"_blank">jbradley@mac.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">I am still trying to understand the = use case.<div><br></div><div>Having multiple discovery formats each = requiring separate processing is not = optimal.</div><div><br></div><div>Being able to transform from one to = the other may have advantages.</div> <div><br></div><div>I am speculating that the Google wants a discovery = format that can be entirely parsed with JS inside the = browser.</div><div><br></div><div>I am not personally religious about = XML. </div><div><br></div> <div>If a JSON format that can be transformed into the equivalent = XML XRD can be specified that may be a useful work product for the = TC.</div><div><br></div><div>My main concerns are around signatures if = this starts being used on the server as well as in the browser.</div> <div><br></div><div>The Google seems to have decided this week that = going outside the existing standards development process is more = efficient.</div><div>I would prefer that this not result in competing = discovery standards.</div> <div><br></div><div>It is worth discussing, but at the end of the day = Google may need to do what it needs to do.</div><div><br></div><div>John = B.</div><div><div></div><div><div><br><div><div>On 2010-04-22, at 3:04 = PM, Will Norris wrote:</div> <br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 22, = 2010 at 10:58 AM, Scott Cantor <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a = href=3D"mailto:cantor.2@osu.edu" = target=3D"_blank">cantor.2@osu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote = class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc = solid;padding-left:1ex"> <div>> JsonML does a far better job than some other similar utilities = I've seen,<br> so<br> > that is certainly nice. And for it's stated goals of = providing a compact<br> > format for transporting XML, it works great. But that kind of = misses the<br> > point of using JSON, which is to provide an natural representation = of the<br> > object, not just a document.<br> <br> </div>I think the document is the natural representation. A simple layer = of code<br> addresses whatever limitations might exist in the language that's = purporting<br> to be too difficult to use the document in.<br> <br> But as a matter of specification, the problem you have is that, like = SAML,<br> there's an explicit characterization of the notion of an XRD as being = XML.<br> If it's not XML, it's not an XRD. I have not seen a simple way around = that.<br> <br> A separate specification can be created to establish an interchange = format<br> in some other encoding with a different label attached to it, but if = the<br> goal here was to allow for non-XML representations of an XRD, it = would<br> require some fairly big changes that I'm pretty comfortable saying = nobody<br> wants to take on.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>certainly, I wasn't = meaning to suggest a departure of any kind from how XRD is defined = today. I've been quite upfront from the beginning of my = involvement with this TC that I view XRD (as it's specified) solely as = an XML format, and if you want something else, then do it yourself. = Well, now Google is sort of doing it ourselves, and we = figured that if others end up wanting to do the same, it might be = good to have agreement on what that JSON format looks like. That = could just be a whitepaper, a best practice guide, or whatever. It = certainly doesn't have to be a product of this TC, I just thought I = would see if it was anything folks had any interest in it.</div> <div><br></div><div>-will</div></div> = </blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></di= v> = </blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></di= v></div> </blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br> </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-113--469397388-- --Apple-Mail-114--469396200 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIO9TCCBwsw ggXzoAMCAQICAgZDMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIGMMQswCQYDVQQGEwJJTDEWMBQGA1UEChMNU3Rh cnRDb20gTHRkLjErMCkGA1UECxMiU2VjdXJlIERpZ2l0YWwgQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUgU2lnbmluZzE4 MDYGA1UEAxMvU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMiBQcmltYXJ5IEludGVybWVkaWF0ZSBDbGllbnQgQ0Ew 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