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Subject: FW: AMQP Management Workstream


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ORGANIZER;CN=Rob Dolin (MS OPEN TECH):MAILTO:robdolin@microsoft.com
ATTENDEE;ROLE=REQ-PARTICIPANT;PARTSTAT=NEEDS-ACTION;RSVP=TRUE;CN=amqp@lists
 .oasis-open.org:MAILTO:amqp@lists.oasis-open.org
DESCRIPTION;LANGUAGE=en-US:(Forwarding to the full AMQP TC)\n\n-----Origina
 l Appointment-----\nFrom: Rob Dolin (MS OPEN TECH)\nSent: Monday\, May 20\
 , 2013 4:08 PM\nTo: Rob Dolin (MS OPEN TECH)\; rafaels@redhat.com<mailto:r
 afaels@redhat.com>\nSubject: AMQP Management Workstream\nWhen: Tuesday\, M
 ay 21\, 2013 8:00 AM-9:00 AM (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada).\nWher
 e: Lync: +14257063500 | 282 415 439 #\n\n\nHi Rafael\,\n      I’m hoping
  this time tomorrow (after the AMQP BindMap TC meeting) might work for dis
 cussing your feedback on the AMQP Management spec.  Thanks very much—\n-
 -Rob D.\n\n(See bottom of email for hyperlinks to call-in numbers)\n\n\n--
 ---Original Message-----\nFrom: amqp@lists.oasis-open.org<mailto:amqp@list
 s.oasis-open.org> [mailto:amqp@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Rob Doli
 n (MS OPEN TECH)\nSent: Friday\, May 17\, 2013 6:52 AM\nTo: rafaels@redhat
 .com<mailto:rafaels@redhat.com>\nCc: amqp@lists.oasis-open.org<mailto:amqp
 @lists.oasis-open.org>\nSubject: RE: [amqp] RE: AMQP Management Workstream
 \n\nTHANK YOU very much Rafael for your thoughtful comments.\n\nI'm going 
 to work on addressing / incorporating them into a Doc using track changes 
 and will schedule a ConCall with shared screen for review next week.  Plea
 se let me know if you have any conflicts with the following days/times:\n*
  Tue\, 11am Eastern / 8am Pacific\n* Tue\, 1pm Eastern / 10am Pacific\n* W
 ed\, 11am Eastern / 8am Pacific\n\nIf others have comments\, please also s
 hare on the list.\n\nThanks very much--\n--Rob D.\n\nP.S. Once the call is
  scheduled\, I'll send the info to the AMQP TC so folks who are interested
  in participating can join.\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Rafael 
 Schloming [mailto:rafaels@redhat.com]\nSent: Wednesday\, May 15\, 2013 9:0
 8 AM\nTo: Rob Dolin (MS OPEN TECH)\nCc: amqp@lists.oasis-open.org<mailto:a
 mqp@lists.oasis-open.org>\nSubject: Re: [amqp] RE: AMQP Management Workstr
 eam\n\nI've been working through the document and do have some comments. I
 'll summarize them below. I'm happy to discuss over email or at a call\, w
 hichever you prefer.\n\n  - Section 3\, the treatment of case seems to be 
 confusing/inconsistent.\nThe first para has operations in lowercase\, the 
 second in uppercase\, and the table in 3.1 says that the operation is case
  sensitive and then goes on to say that it SHOULD be in ALL UPPERCASE. Thi
 s confused me at first because if the field is case sensitive then it need
 s to match exactly how the operations are defined\, so simply defining the
  standard operations to be "CREATE"\, ... rather than "create" should be s
 ufficient. I think what is being said in the latter part is really attempt
 ing to establish a naming convention about how custom operations should be
  defined and as such is not really directly related to the formal definiti
 on of the field. I would suggest it would be clearer to either define it e
 lsewhere or simply omit it entirely. (As an aside\, the example in para 2 
 of section 3 seems to violate this naming convention:\n"CreateNewTopic")\n
 \n  - Section 3.1: the locales description was a bit confusing\, it took m
 e a reread to figure out that it was talking about what locale to use for 
 the response.\n\n  - Section 3.3 (UPDATE): are updates atomic?\n\n  - Sect
 ion 3.3 (READALL): if this does get extended to include filters\, e.g. as 
 suggested on type\, then READALL might be a bit of a misnomer. It also occ
 urs to me that the response could end up being very very large if you are 
 indeed querying all manageable objects for a given system\, even if you ca
 n restrict to a given type. This brings to mind more generic filtering/que
 rying capabilities. I know pagination is something that consoles will run 
 into right away. Perhaps we should consider the pros/cons of defining a st
 andard way to do paging and/or querying in order to handle incrementally r
 eading and/or narrowing the subset of data.\n\n  - Section 3.3 (DISCOVER):
  this seems to be mixing both metadata (information about the types and op
 erations) with operational data (the names of the actual instances). One q
 uestion that comes to mind is why include names but not ids? This seems li
 ke it could lead to confusion if the names change. Perhaps the ids should 
 be included also in these sorts of list results. Secondly\, I don't think 
 it is a good idea to mix metadata and operational data in this way. It str
 ikes me that management consoles would likely want to be able to query the
 se separately\, e.g.\nquery the metadata alone on startup when configuring
  the UI and then separately refresh operational data as things change. For
 cing both the metadata and the operational data to be pulled down at the s
 ame time seems both less efficient and more awkward for at least some scen
 arios.\n\n  - Section 3.3 (DISCOVER-MGMT-NODES): The model in general here
  could use some more explanation. I struggled to figure out why you needed
  so many different operations that all basically boil down to directory li
 sting\, and to be honest I'm not convinced you actually do need so many di
 fferent ones. It would be possible to collapse these with some changes/sim
 plification to the model. It appears there are at least 3 different naming
  schemes involved here: ids\, names\, and addresses.\nFurthermore addresse
 s are used in two ways. A manageable entity such as a queue might have an 
 address\, and a manage*ment* entity might be accessible via an address. At
  a minimum this needs to be explained better\, but IMHO could use some sim
 plification.\n\n  - Section 3.3 (REGISTER & DEREGISTER): this functionalit
 y seems odd to me as part of a basic manageable entity. This would seem to
  imply that all management nodes need to function as general purpose direc
 tory services.\n\nGeneral comments:\n\n  - It seems odd to use names as ke
 ys for operations when we have unique and immutable ids\, renaming comes t
 o mind as something that would be more obvious/possible this way.\n\n  - O
 verall I found it difficult to decipher the data structures as presented. 
 There are actually a whole lot of highly structured types being defined he
 re via English. It would be a whole lot more precise to model these via fo
 rmal XML definitions.\n\n  - There doesn't seem to be any notion of events
  or live updates or stats. This can to some extent be treated as an orthog
 onal problem and addressed as an independent chunk of work\, but it would 
 be nice to see some early thinking about if/how this would intersect.\n\n 
  - It might be nice to have some way to get a hint of how many results the
 re are likely to be from the directory listing operations. That would at a
  minimum allow a console to avoid pulling over more information than it ca
 n usefully/conceivably display. You can also imagine adding some kind of l
 imit to get only the first N results back.\n\n--Rafael\n\n\n..............
 ..........................................................................
 .................................................\n--> Join Lync Meeting<h
 ttps://join.microsoft.com/meet/robdolin/GGGQLPW8>\n\nJoin by phone\n+14257
 063500 (USA - Redmond Campus)             English (United States)\n+188832
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 ocal number<https://join.microsoft.com/dialin>\n\nConference ID: 282 415 4
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 .......\n\n\n\n\n
SUMMARY;LANGUAGE=en-US:FW: AMQP Management Workstream
DTSTART;TZID=Pacific Standard Time:20130521T080000
DTEND;TZID=Pacific Standard Time:20130521T090000
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