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Subject: Re: [bdx] Scalability


Hi Pim

I'm not sure this discussion is relevant for the rechartering, but interesting just the same.

To answer your question first: In DNS the frequency for querying changes to a registration is specified in the Time To Live (TTL) value. If you have a DNS registration that frequently changes then you put a low TTL value. If your registration seldom changes, then you put a high TTL value. The system querying your registration caches the response and will know by the TTL value when to check again. This is all existing technology that we all use thousands of times every day. It's probably important for the TC members to understand how this work, but most importantly is that we know that it works.

We had several reasons in PEPPOL for choosing DNS as part of the SMLP. It was an important design goal for us to separate metadata (capabilities) from the transport protocol, and to make it orthogonal so that other transport protocols could coexist with our own START protocol. I think this philosophy serves BDX well now. Also important was to create an architecture with no single-point-of-failure. The distributed nature of DNS solves this in way that centralized systems (such as UDDI) cannot, and the DNS technology is already widely available (we all use it thousands of times every day).

Best regards,

Kenneth


From: Pim van der Eijk <pvde@sonnenglanz.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:09:09 +0100
To: Mikkel Hippe Brun <mhb@tradeshift.com>, <Susanne.Wigard@it.nrw.de>
Cc: Kenneth Bengtsson <kenneth@alfa1lab.com>, Tim McGrath <tim.mcgrath@documentengineeringservices.com>, <bdx@lists.oasis-open.org>, Jens Jakob Andersen <jjan@itst.dk>
Subject: [bdx] Scalability

Hello Mikkel,
 
Lightweight and reliable are adjectives that I'm sure we all like, so I'm ok with this.  
 
I'm also not against using DNS, and it's great that a DNS-based registry solution draft has been submitted to the TC as it's always good to have a starting point for discussions,  but,  separately from the rechartering discussion,  and having been in this TC for some time, I would like to understand the requirement for DNS-scale scalability better.  
 
To explain why I'm asking,  let me sketch a scenario, a question and two extreme possible answers:
 
Assume company A manages to get itself registered successfully using SML/SMP/CPP or similar technologies in the BDX infrastructure. 
 
Assume a current or prospective trading partner B retrieves the registration records for A. 
 
Now B has information that it can send documents of type T to some gateway G using a protocol P and possibly other configuration information C,  from a starting data/time S to an ending date time E.   E may be several months or or even years in the future
 
My question is:   
 
How often,  if at all, does B (or B's service provider) need to actively retrieve the registration information for A ?
 
Answer 1:
 
Whenever B is about to send a document to A,  as B may have changed its registration information (e.g. selected a different service provider,  or acquired a new ERP system that handles a different set of XML schemas etc.).    This is a bit like checking your friends' telephone number in the telephone directory whenever you're about to call them,  as they may have changed their numbers without telling you.  It's certainly possible,  though in my social network I don't know anybody who actually does this .. 
 
Answer 2:
 
Only if/when A's configuration information changes, as B subscribes to A's social network update list and gets updates delivered to itself if/when needed. A pushes configuration updates directly to its partners, for instance using something like a generalization of the IETF CEM message, or some other protocol we design in BDX.   In this scenario,  B only ever uses a directory for initial discovery of new trading partners. All subsequent updates among its social network are peer-to-peer (though possibly mediated via various services providers).    
 
In many industries,  this year's trading partner list on average has a 95% overlap with last'years list, especially among SMEs. If A and B are in a closed community (say government agencies collaborating in some specialized area of government),  they may skip the initial discovery step altogether (and may prefer to not be discoverable at all) as they will get their initial configuration information some other way, yet an update mechanism could still be useful in a closed community.
 
The scalability requirements for (1) and (2) are obviously vastly different.    But they are also different in architectural and functional ways, and support different types of communities and requirements in different ways.   
 
Pim
 


From: bdx@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:bdx@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Mikkel Hippe Brun
Sent: 02 March 2012 10:04
To: Susanne.Wigard@it.nrw.de
Cc: kenneth@alfa1lab.com; tim.mcgrath@documentengineeringservices.com; bdx@lists.oasis-open.org; jjan@itst.dk
Subject: Re: [bdx] Proposal for a TC recharter

Thank you for this clarification Susanne. I am very exited about the prospect of getting new resources into the TC. I have re-read the proposed charter multiple times and I can see where you are coming from and that you really intend to make the TC very operational. 

The only thing I miss from the old charter is the emphasis on the resulting infrastructure in itself being lightweight. It also follows from the infrastructure being federated, but the critical part is that any centralized infrastructure components have as little footprint as possible. The more we can piggybag on existing infrastructure the better. Such a framing would also scope discussions about service discovery and addressing specifications like UDDI and ebXML RegRep.

I would then sugges the following change to the proposed charter:

Original: 
The purpose of the TC is therefore to define the specifications of a federated messaging and trust infrastructure for data exchange and web services interoperability between domains.

Proposed:
The purpose of the TC is therefore to define the specifications of a lightweight and federated messaging and trust infrastructure for reliable data exchange between domains.

I have taken out the "web services interoperability" because this is covered by other OASIS TC's and I dont think that we should limit ourselvs to web services (in the classical sence). The old charter mentioned "messaging service standards" and I think this term covers the intention better.

All the best
Mikkel 





On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 11:01 PM, <Susanne.Wigard@it.nrw.de> wrote:
Dear all,
 
First let me apologize for failing to join the telco. I'll have more comments when I get to see the minutes - for now let me just emphasize that indeed the intention of broadening the scope goes anlong with the goal to add resources to the TC, in particular from the LSP project that I'm working with, e-CODEX, and connected to activities in the context of creating a common transport infrastructure for the ongoing and future LSPs. So it's not about disreagrding the PEPPOL work, but quite to the contrary about continuning it into new projects and domains.
 
Regards
 
Susanne
____________________________________
Susanne Wigard
Phone +49-211-9449-6742
Mobile +49 1735260181
  


Von: bdx@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:bdx@lists.oasis-open.org] Im Auftrag von Mikkel Hippe Brun
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 1. März 2012 22:28
An: Kenneth Bengtsson
Cc: Tim McGrath; bdx@lists.oasis-open.org; Jens Jakob Andersen
Betreff: Re: [bdx] Proposal for a TC recharter

Thank you for the clarification Kenneth. This sounds very good and I look forward to the continued discussion and the next meeting. 

Regards / Hilsen
Mikkel

Den 01/03/2012 kl. 21.40 skrev Kenneth Bengtsson <kenneth@alfa1lab.com>:

Dear Tim and Mikkel

I agree with your comments, and it was as such also the intention with the proposed charter to reflect these viewpoints. I'm sure the wording can be improved:

In the statement of purpose it says that TC specifications should be...
"...wherever and to the extent possible, based on profiles of existing standards from OASIS and elsewhere that are widely-used and proven, or otherwise seen to be generally applicable.".
The intended meaning of this is, exactly as both of you commented: To focus on technologies that already exist and can be put into immediate use in the work of the TC.

Also in the statement of purpose:
"In certain areas the work will therefore initially be centered on the work of these LSPs (notably on SMLP around identity and service discovery, addressing and profiling), and will also consider other approaches and related specifications (e.g. DNS, ebXML CPA, UDDI, ebXML RegRep, WS-Discovery)...".
The intended meaning here is to say: We will leverage the work already done by PEPPOL and other LSPs - this is our starting point. However, if along the way we accept specific requirements or if we see that our work can benefit from it, then we shouldn't by default disregard other technologies. We have a solid starting point with the work already produced by the LSPs and it is from there that we progress. However we shouldn't progress wearing blinkers.

In the scope of work is specifically mentioned that the specifications from PEPPOL (namely SML, SMP, START and LIME) will have their home in the TC. The SML/SMP technology are the foundation for discovery, whereas START and LIME may have more PEPPOL-specific uses. I'd like to stress again that it is not the intention to disregard the work already produced.

I'm sure that the wordings in the proposed charter can be improved to better reflect the intended meaning. There is no pride in ownership, so please feel free to make all the suggestions for improvement that you like! At yesterday's meeting we agreed to postpone the vote for the recharter until March 14 to allow for comments and specific proposals.

With regards to the "speed with which the TC can work": Mike made the comment yesterday that broadening the scope of the TC means that more work has to be produced, and that adding more resources is by no means a guarantee that work will progress any faster. This is a valid comment and it is in most cases true. However, in our specific case it is a specific objective with the recharter to make the TC a platform for producing specifications for an ongoing convergence of the LSPs respective eDelivery technologies. A widening of the scope will therefore enable the LSPs to add resources to the TC and to take a leading role. As the LSPs are also working with milestones and deadlines I do in fact believe that the proposed recharter will make the TC gain momentum rather than loosing it.

Joao volunteered yesterday to make a suggestion to the proposed charter for clarifying/underlining the role and significance of the LSPs (and the LSP convergence process) in the TC.

Best regards,

Kenneth


From: Tim McGrath <tim.mcgrath@documentengineeringservices.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 22:49:15 +0800
To: "bdx@lists.oasis-open.org" <bdx@lists.oasis-open.org>
Cc: Mikkel Hippe Brun <mhb@tradeshift.com>, Kenneth Bengtsson <kenneth@alfa1lab.com>, Jens Jakob Andersen <jjan@itst.dk>
Subject: Re: [bdx] Proposal for a TC recharter

I also have a call conflict for today's call. i support Mikkel's view on this - the rechartering is a good step forward, but there is a risk of loosing momentum.  We should be capitalizing on the progress PEPPOL and other LSPs have made in this area.  That is, we should be building on what we have, not what we would like to see.

On 29/02/12 10:28 PM, Mikkel Hippe Brun wrote:

Dear all,

I will unfortunately be in transit during todays call due to a delayed flight.

I do support the change to the TC's charter if it means wider support to the TC's work from the other large scale pilots. I do however have concerns about the widening of the scope as it will impact the speed with which the TC can work (Mike's argument).

One important criteria that is fundamental for the large scale pilots mentioned in the charter is that there is very little willingness to establish and fund more than the most essential shared infrastructure components. It is therefore in my opinion very important that the technologies that the TC explores for service discovery and addressing piggybacks on existing Internet infrastructure like DNS. 

I don’t find UDDI or ebXML RegRep to be operational and scalable for large scale infrastructures. We may as a TC and individuals find the standards behind UDDI or ebXML RegRep to be appropriate, but the reference implementations are not battle proven for large scale use. And it is my very strong opinion that the TC should focus on technologies that are battle proven and can be put into use immediately.

Finally - I would like to step down as chair for the TC, but I would like to continue as TC member.


Best regards

Mikkel



On Tuesday, February 21, 2012, Kenneth Bengtsson wrote:
Hi Jens Jakob

I very much agree with you that this is an important design goal and
objective for a number of applications (PEPPOL for example). At the same
time I also believe we must acknowledge that other applications can have
different requirements and implementation architectures.

One of the important reasons for the proposed recharter is to allow for a
broader and more general application of the BDX specifications. This
doesn't mean that we in PEPPOL will accept to have specific protocol
requirements imposed on the "final leg" between gateway and enduser, I
strongly agree with you on this. What it means is that we see an advantage
in opening up the possible use cases for BDX, and not let the requirements
of one project stand in the way of a more broad adoption.

Best regards,

Kenneth


On 2/20/12 8:15 AM, "Jens Jakob Andersen" <jjan@itst.dk> wrote:

>Hi Kenneth
>
>Thank you for the clarifications.
>
>I still cant see in the specs, that is is a _must_, that the protocols to
>be used between gateways must be agnostic to whatever is used on the
>first & last legs.
>
>Some of the "GW to GW" protocols I have seen demonstrated, has many
>features that can only be usefull, when the same family of protocol is
>used end-2-end.
>
>The original design-goal of BDX was to deliver a "meta-protocol" to be
>used between gateways - to interconnect different domains. And supporting
>many different transport-protocols below.
>
>From my (fast fading viewpoint as I am leaving the TC), these
>design-goals should be kept as the TC's design-goals.
>
>Best regards
>
>Jens Jakob
>
>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>Fra: Kenneth Bengtsson [mailto:kenneth@alfa1lab.com]
>Sendt: 13. februar 2012 15:58
>Til: Jens Jakob Andersen; Tim McGrath
>Cc: bdx@lists.oasis-open.org
>Emne: Re: SV: [bdx] SV: Proposal for a TC recharter
>
>Hi Jens Jakob
>
>As Tim already mentioned, the 4-corner model is described already in the
>first paragraph.
>
>With regards to "connecting islands":
>
>In the first paragraph is stated that BDX describes a model "where two
>entities exchange business documents in a secure and reliable way through
>the use of gateways". If we can agree that it is in the definition of a
>gateway that it has two sides, then it is in logic that the two entities
>exchanging business documents must each connect to their respective
>gateways, and that the gateways must connect to one another. Then you
>have the first, the last, and the middle "leg" of the transaction. If you
>read the second and third paragraph of the statement of purpose and
>replace "domain" with "island", then I think you will agree that it is
>actually in the proposed purpose statement to "connect different islands
>of networks".
>It is my understanding that the term "island" is mainly used in
>procurement jargon, why we have used the more generic term "domain" to
>describe exactly the same. This is also to signal that the potential use
>of BDX goes beyond procurement and e-commerce business documents - BDX
>can be used for any type of electronic business document.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Kenneth
>
>
>On 2/13/12 9:44 AM, "Jens Jakob Andersen" <jjan@itst.dk> wrote:
>
>>Hi Tim
>>
>>Thank you for the clarification.
>>
>>That is half of it.
>>
>>What I am looking for is the other part of the 4-corner model, that
>>different protocols can be used on the "first leg" and "last leg" and
>>the "inbetween" part can be a standardized "meta-protocol" such as
>>START - open for mapping to "any" actual protocol.
>>
>>This is the core of the idea of START /and BusDox and BDX/ - that the
>>challenge is to "connect different islands of networks".
>>
>>The acid-test for any change should (IMHO) be: "Can it deliver the
>>value mentioned, in a setup with different protols/implementations on
>>the first and last leg".
>>
>>Best regards
>>
>>Jens Jakob
>>
>>-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>>Fra: Tim McGrath [mailto:tim.mcgrath@documentengineeringservices.com]
>>Sendt: 13. februar 2012 11:22
>>Til: Jens Jakob Andersen
>>Cc: Kenneth Bengtsson; bdx@lists.oasis-open.org
>>Emne: Re: [bdx] SV: Proposal for a TC recharter
>>
>>it is in the statement of purpose.
>>> The BDX standard will describe an architecture (or sets of reference
>>>architectures) where two entities exchange bu


--
Best regards,
Mikkel

Mikkel Hippe Brun
Chief Strategy Officer, Cofounder

Voice: +45 3118 9102
Skype: hippebrun
Twitter: @hippebrun  @tradeshift
Mail: mhb@tradeshift.com
Web: http://tradeshift.com

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