Chat log of 2013-04-03 morning session

[Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com>]

MarkCarlson: Are we using this?

MartinC - webex: yes

Scribe (anish): 3rd f2f in Santa Clara, CA

Scribe (anish): Meeting started

Scribe (anish): Topic: roll call

Scribe (anish): 10 of 16 VM present (62%)

Scribe (anish): quorate

Scribe (anish): Topic: agenda bashing

Scribe (anish): agenda for today: PDP and if we have time lifecycle 
discussion

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): Martin, I am on the call

Scribe (anish): thursday agenda: scaling policy, issue 30, 17, TA discussion

Scribe (anish): Ashok joins the call

Scribe (anish): thrusday agenda+: liaisons (Cloud4SOA, ODCA)

Scribe (anish): friday agenda: review schedule, next f2f planning, 
implementation;interop plugfest planning, issue 2

Adrian Otto (Rackspace) : If you are interested in the ODCA 
documentation, reference: 
http://www.opendatacenteralliance.org/docs/ODCA_PAAS_Interop_UM_Rev1.0.pdf

Scribe (anish): friday agenda+ alignment with other specs, use cases, primer

Scribe (anish): alignment with other specs agenda topic to be discussed 
friday morning (alex has to leave early)

Scribe (anish): Agenda approved

Scribe (anish): Topic: meeting minutes approval

Scribe (anish): 27th march 2013 minutes

MartinC - webex: 
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/email/archives/201303/msg00097.html

Scribe (anish): motion m:anish s:gil to approved minutes of 2013-03-27 
call located at 
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/email/archives/201303/msg00097.html

Scribe (anish): approved w/o

Scribe (anish): Topic: new issues

Scribe (anish): issue 57

Scribe (anish): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-57

Scribe (anish): tom explains his issue

Scribe (anish): adrian +1s the issue. was an oversight

Scribe (anish): Adrian has uploaded a proposal to make everything consistent

Scribe (anish): Tom: the proposal has a bug

Scribe (anish): motion: m:tom s:adrian to open issue 57

Scribe (anish): motion approved w/o

Scribe (anish): issue 57 is open

Scribe (anish): Topic: issue 57 proposal

Adrian Otto (Rackspace) : I move to resolve CAMP-57 with 
camp-spec-v1.1-wn08-issue57.doc, with one change: Section 5.5.1 adjusts 
Type to Link[] and "This attribute is an array of Links to 
PlatformEndpoint Resources..."

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): There is a typo in the title

Scribe (anish): + title of section needs to say platformEndpointLinks

Michael Behrens: Good catch - paltform -> platform

Adrian Otto (Rackspace) : motion so modified

Scribe (anish): motion m:adiran s:tom to resolve CAMP-57 with 
camp-spec-v1.1-wn08-issue57.doc, with one change: Section 5.5.1 adjusts 
Type to Link[] and "This attribute is an array of Links to 
PlatformEndpoint Resources..." and modify the title to align with the 
name of the attribute

Scribe (anish): motion approved w/o

Scribe (anish): Topic: PDP discussion (issue 4)

Scribe (anish): Gil has a presentation on use cases

Scribe (anish): 
https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/48711/PDP-Use-Cases-2013-04-01.doc

Scribe (anish): gil: use case document contains usecases that we should 
support as well as usecases that we shouldn't.

Michael Behrens: Good discussion wrt vocabulary syntax (name/version), 
aliases?.  Also, wrt exceptions, what would be the rest return status of 
auto-wiring is partially successful (201 Created)?

Gil: 201 Created - Location header contains URL of AssemblyTemplate

Gil: GET AssemblyTemplate and look at the "lifecycleState" attribute

Gil: also keep an eye on "representationSkew"

Gil: when representationSkew goes to "NONE" you can count on the value 
of "lifecycleState"

Mark Carlson (Oracle): We have an example Requirement in the spec today 
(D.3):      {
  "uri": URI,
  "name": String,
  "type": "databaseRequirement",
  "description": String,
  "created": Timestamp,
  "representationSkew": String, ?
  "tags": [
    String, +
  ], ?
  "clusterTypes": [
    String, +
  ],
  "numberNodesRange": String,
  "coreRange": String,
  "memSizeRange": String,
  "diskSizeRange": String,
  "backupEnabled": Boolean,
  "synchronousCopyEnabled": Boolean,
  "partitionEnabled": Boolean,
  "compressionEnabled": Boolean,
  "retentionEnabled": Boolean,
  "tunings": [
    String, +
  ],
  "cachingEnabled": Boolean
}

Alex Heneveld (Cloudsoft): @Mark +1 -- so i in my app component i supply 
such a requirement, with cachingEnabled.  the platform then sorts that 
out against capabilities.  (the fact it is a DatabaseTemplate is 
irrelevant.)

Scribe (anish): discussion on Gil's usecase document (detailed 
discussion not captured)

Mark Carlson (Oracle): Keep in mind that this is a *management* 
interface. How the app is represented in the management interface can be 
completely decoupled from the underlying granularity of the implementation.

MartinC : +1 mark

Gil: I disagree

Gil: a platform implementation cannot support a granularity of 
representation any finer than that of its underlying management model

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): Maybe we should restrict PDPs to the case where 
they are created knowing what's available on the platform.

Gil: that means you can't take extract a PDP from one platform and 
attempt to register it on another platform

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): yes

Gil: that's not good

Gil: we should at least give devs a fighting chance

MartinC : that would fail one of the propositions on camp

MartinC : s/on/of/

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): But it will work -- no requirement/capability 
matching needed

Gil: granted the behavior may 99% fall back to use case 1

MartinC : being able to port an app from one provider to another is a 
key use case

Gil: but at least it gives you a start

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): I understand the usecase.  Just worried about 
whether we can support it

Gil: the fallback to use case 1 makes this possible

Mark Carlson (Oracle): One of the most basic questions someone is going 
ask of a new cloud is "will this cloud work for me"? The answer to that 
question is the coupling between what the application needs and what the 
platform actually provides. I know that this is a hard problem, but it 
seems pretty fundamental to what we are working on here...

Gil: but the componentization of the PDP has nothing to do with that 
question

Gil: whether the platform represents your application as being 3 ACTs or 
1 ACT, you still need to resolve the dependencies of those components 
against the appropriate platform services

Mark Carlson (Oracle): The PDP import is the means by which you find out 
the answer to the question.

Gil: . . . and that is in line with how things work today - you can't 
really tell whether Engine Yard, for example, can run your app until you 
install it and try

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): Don't you want to ask the question before you 
create a PDP?  That would make life easy!

Gil: you may want to ask that question before you create the PDP, but I 
wouldn't count on the answer!

Gil: it may "look" like the platform supplies you everything you need, 
but there may be unforeseen complications

Mark Carlson (Oracle): On a blank platform where you just created the 
account, what you see through CAMP today is what the platform offers. 
You have to answer the question yourself based on your own knowledge of 
the application's needs.

Gil: at best you can receive strong negative evidence

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): Can I query what Platform Components it offers?

Gil: yes

Mark Carlson (Oracle): If you take a (previously created) PDP that 
already encapsulates what the application needs and import it to that 
blank platfrom, then if the AT goes to "RUNNABLE" - the answer to the 
question is YES. Otherwise the answer is still "maybe"...

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): Then I can tailor my PDP appropriately

Ashok Malhotra (Oracle): The "maybe" gives me agida!

Mark Carlson (Oracle): @ashok - my point is that I should have a PDP 
that "purey" just represents what my application needs without having 
the answer the questiona ahead of time for each platform

Mark Carlson (Oracle): purely

Gil: Ashok - that "maybe" is the state of the industry

Gil: nothing a humble little spec can do is going to magically change that

Alex Heneveld (Cloudsoft): 1)

Michael Behrens: question for the break: has anyone thought about 
renaming PDP to avoid confusion with Policy Decision Point?