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Subject: Draft Minutes 8th January 2014
Meeting Minutes 8th January 2014 Attendees: US Department of Defense (DoD) Michael Behrens Member Oracle Martin Chapman Chair Fujitsu Limited Jacques Durand Voting Member Cloudsoft Corporation Limited Alex Heneveld Voting Member Oracle Anish Karmarkar Voting Member Oracle Ashok Malhotra Voting Member NetApp Alex McDonald Voting Member Vnomic Derek Palma Voting Member Oracle Gilbert Pilz Voting Member Fujitsu Limited Tom Rutt Voting Member Software AG, Inc. Prasad Yendluri Voting Member Into: SCRIBE: Gil TOPIC: Roll Call Attendees listed above, 10 of 12 (83%), quorate TOPIC: Agenda Martin> Agenda sent to mailing list there has been some discussion of some of the issues on the mailing list. Approved as posted MartinC: Minutes: TOPIC: Minutes 18th December 2013: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/email/archives/201312/msg00074.html MOTION: move to approve the minutes of 12/18/2013 - Ashok, s: Alex McDonald Motion Passes by UC TOPIC: Administrivia Martin: We have 8 open issues, 1 P1, 3 P2, 4 P3 .. we're behind schedule .. need to close comments down, resolve issues, and get to PR by end of Jan, early Feb .. I'm going to be a bit harder on you guys TOPIC: Editing Team Update Jacques> Have been making progress .. have raised some new normative challenges to the spec .. these need to be dealt with before I can finish .. change in attribute and resource names has to be dealt with Martin> If TA development effects the main spec, we need to find this out ASAP TOPIC: Issues Discussion Martin> No new issues CAMP-150 https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-150 Anish is the scribe for issue 150 Gil explains proposal v5 .. now two ways for doing it by-value Alex: this addresses my concerns ... we are asking ppl to support multiple ways for getting their applications into the platform ... but this is the core of the spec ... and requiring multiple ways to get in their applications is fine ... so support it Jacques: if we are concerned about implementors not implementing all the ways, we can scale it down by defining different levels of conformance Gil: willing to accept Alex's assertion for theses things. Not inclined to have multiple conformance level Motion: m:gil s:AlexH resolve issue 150 with proposal v5 in JIRA no objections, motion passes w/o. SCRIBE: Gil TOPIC: CAMP-155 https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-155 Martin> There is a proposal Gil> That proposal is out of date w/regards to the current state of discussion on the issue Tom> How we resolve this effects CAMP-44 Gil> Isn't that the wrong way around? Anish> Resolving this would help us resolve CAMP-44 Alex Heneveld (scribe): @Gil - why do we need to formally communicate that you'll never see the parent's optional "foo" Gil> discusses the need to flatten the attribute_definitions array Anish: i'm not sure we need to support such a feature Ashok> then the sub-type can't stand-in for it's parent Gil> it can if the attribute is optional in the parent Anish: what's the motivation for this Alex> we don't need to support this, most programming languages don't ... what's the harm if the attribute just happens to never appear? Tom> if it is optional in the parent it means "it may or may not appear", that isn't compatible with "it cannot appear" (general discussion on the idea of flattening the attribute_definitions array of the type_definition resource) TOPIC: CAMP-146 https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-146 Martin> there is no proposal for this issue AlexH> I will write a proposal for this at some point, but I don't want to hold up the release of the spec Martin> A proposal for this could be considered a material change to the spec, which effects the OASIS process AlexH> if it comes to that, I will withhold my proposal Anish> I think what we have is good enough TOPIC: CAMP-152 https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-152 Jacques> describes progress on this issue Jacque> suggest we focus on the latest 4 points Martin> I would prefer if we process these as new issues, otherwise we will never be done with CAMP-152 Jacques> I will do that Jacques (Fujitsu): New issue for Normative Tag Challenges: https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-158 TOPIC: CAMP-44 https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-44 Anish> I've posted a rev 5 this morning .. it's linked off the Jira (Anish presents latest version of proposal (5)) Anish> not a lot of changes .. deleted example that caused more problems than it clarified .. fairly simple proposal Ashok> don't know what it means to "semantically constrain" Tom> you could have an attribute, in a super-type, which says "this attribute is an http or ftp URL" .. the sub-type can say "this attribute is an http URL" .. the sub-type is adding a semantic constraint .. in our spec this can only be expressed in English Ashok> can we say that you simply can't change the semantics? .. would that cover it? Anish> ultimate goal is substitutability ..this is the most liberal was of making sure things are substitutable .. other ways are more restrictive on the Provider/Modeler Anish: A sub-type MAY further restrict the constraints of an attribute inherited from its super-type(s). A sub-type SHALL NOT loosen the constraints of an attribute inherited from its super-type(s). Alex Heneveld: @Martin the semantics of loosening constraints is clearer to me than loosening semantics ;) Jacques> the way "substitutable" is used is ambigious Anish: tom's suggestion: As a consequence, a resource of a sub-type can always substitute for a resource of any of its super-types. (general discussion of what it means to be substitutable and the order of the "substitute" relationship) Anish: As a consequence, a resource of a sub-type can always be substituted for a resource of any of its super-types. Alex McDonald> in the case of multiple of inheritance, how can any sub-type replace any of its super-types Anish> an *instance* of a sub-type can be replaced for an *instance* of its super-type Alex McD> A, B, C, D; B and C inherit from A; D inherits from both B and C (general discussion around "ignore things you don't expect" principle) Anish: All our types are extensible, so you can add any additional attributes Anish: the whole point is that if there is a type called "web server component" Anish: ... i should be able to subtype that and add an attribute and use it where "web server component" is used Jacques> the sentence "As a consequence, a resource of a sub-type can always be substituted for a resource of any of its super-types." is counter-intutive (general discussion) MartinC: As a consequence, a resource of a super-type can always be substituted with a resource of any of its sub-types Michael Behrens: +1 Alex Heneveld: A superman can do anything that a regular man can do. agreed changes: A sub-type MAY further restrict the constraints of an attribute inherited from its super-type(s). A sub-type SHALL NOT loosen the constraints of an attribute inherited from its super-type(s). [XXX-TAG] As a consequence, a resource of a super-type can always be substituted with a resource of any of its sub-types . MOTION: Move to accept the v5 proposal+ changes (above) as a resolution to CAMP-44; m:Tom, s:Gil Anish: here is the URL to v6: https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/document.php?document_id=51891&wg_abbrev=camp Motion passes by UC Jacques> moves to extend the meeting by 5 minutes AlexH> 2nds, no objections Motion passes by UC TOPIC: CAMP-158 https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-158 Jacques> (discusses point 4 for CAMP-158) 415 Unsupported Media Type AOB: Stragglers: Derek Meeting adjourned
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