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Subject: Re[3]: [cgmo-webcgm] Text searching

See inline...

Thursday, May 4, 2006, 8:26:17 PM, you wrote:
> Hi Benoit,

> Some technical replies for you (and Dieter)...

> At 06:31 PM 5/3/2006 -0400, Benoit Bezaire wrote:
>>I'm seeing the emails coming in about this topic. And I have to state
>>that I don't understand how people get to such an understanding of the
>>feature by reading what is in the specification. More inline...
>>Wednesday, May 3, 2006, 6:04:20 PM, you wrote:
>> > Benoit,
>> > I think the example does not reflect the intentions of the authors.
>> > It should be like this
>> >>   (approx syntax)
>> >>   BEGAPS 'myPara'
>> >>    APSATTR 'content' 'Hello World';
>> >>    ...
>> >>    BEGAPS 'mySubpara'
>> >>     APSATTR 'content' 'World';
>> >>     ...
>> >>    ENDAPS;
>> >>   ENDAPS;
>> > Hence the content attribute of the para would contain all the text of the
>> > para, whereas the attribute of the subpara woul contain the text of
>> > the subpara only.
>>Hmmm. Isn't this an assumption? I could see it use this way when using
>>para/subpara on a raster; but that may not always be the case.

> Perhaps it is an assumption, but it seems to me to be at least
> hinted by the text of,, and  (Or ...
> perhaps I'm too biased by what the 1.0 authors meant to say, but
> that they didn't express unambiguously.)
Sorry, I disagree.

There's no hint in there which says 'content' on a para MUST contain
all text strings found in all subpara 'content's. I see things like
'may be used to identify text', 'can potentially enable text search',
'identifying matches [...] is not specified in WebCGM.', 'may be used
to identify smaller fragments', 'This enables, for example [...]'.

What para/subpara/content is suppose to do, is far from clear. And
according to recent W3C standards would not make it into the spec if
not corrected.

>>Regardless, doesn't Chris' question still stand?
> That question is: is para a block and subpara an inline?  Yes, we're
> going to have to answer the question somehow.  There are a couple of
> problems here. 

> First problem, para and subpara (as you pointed out in your proposed
> reply) are APS objects which group stuff which might not even be
> text.  So the question, as it stands, seems meaningless.  However,
> para+content could be viewed as a surrogate for or abstraction of
> the textual-related thingy inside its APS, and similarly for
> subpara+content.  Then you could phrase the question about those
> "surrogates".
You are playing with words here!
On the call we explained to Chris that para/supara were not text
elements but APS. But his question still stand and has now become:
is para+'content' a block and subpara+'content' an inline.

> Second problem, I still don't know what block and inline mean (Chris
> is consulting with an i18n guy before sending more info).
I agree.

> But from XHTML, a block element is like a 'p' and an inline element
> is like a 'span'.

> Let's suppose HTML had a 'content' attribute (maybe you could do
> this example with 'title' attribute, which is typically used for a
> tooltip). 

> <p content="???">Hello <span content="world">world</span></p>

> Would you expect ??? to reflect the entire content of the <p>
> element, or only that portion of the <p> element that is outside of
> the <span>? I would expect the first, i.e., ??? should be "Hello
> world". 
I would have no expectation. I don't know any specification that puts
restrictions on character data for an attribute. It's either a
predefined set of values or plain character data.

I think using HTML 'alt' would be a better comparison... and you will
notice that it can only be specified on IMG, AREA, APPLET, and INPUT.
It cannot be used on <p> and <span>, thus most (if not all) the WebCGM
problems related to this do not exist in HTML.

> This is the way I think about para and subpara (and apparently some
> others do as well).  However, from the example that Chris posed, I
> may be entirely off base as to the meaning of "block" and "inline".
I don't think we are way off on the block/inline thing. But I do think
that using an attribute (content) on APS which can be nested and
possibly already readable, to be a mistake.

> More...

>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Benoit Bezaire [mailto:benoit@itedo.com]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:53 PM
>> >> To: cgmo-webcgm@lists.oasis-open.org
>> >> Subject: [cgmo-webcgm] Text searching
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >>   On the call today, Chris asked me the following question... Assume
>> >>   we have:
>> >>
>> >>   (approx syntax)
>> >>   BEGAPS 'myPara'
>> >>    APSATTR 'content' 'Hello';
>> >>    ...
>> >>    BEGAPS 'mySubpara'
>> >>     APSATTR 'content' 'World';
>> >>     ...
>> >>    ENDAPS;
>> >>   ENDAPS;
>> >>
>> >>   And he does a text search on the string "Hello World", will he get a
>> >>   hit, yes or no?
>> >>
>> >>   I believe this to be an indirect way of asking/answering if
>> >>   'subpara' is an inline or a block.
>> >>
>> >>   If we say, yes there's a hit, then we've defined 'subpara' as
>> >>   inline, if we say, no there's no hit, it's a block.

> I'd say "no hit".  But the problem here is that the 1.0 authors designed
> this with a very specific ad hoc semantic in mind -- like <p> and <span> --
> and the question is ... well, baffling to me still.

> That doesn't mean that we can't answer it, once we know what block and
> inline mean, but we need to be a little careful of adding semantic that
> wasn't there and not intended in 1.0.

> Btw, we have other under-spec problems as well.  In this example

> BEGAPS 'myPara'
>    APSATTR 'content' 'Hello World';
>    ...
>    BEGAPS 'mySubpara'
>       APSATTR 'content' 'World';
>       ...
>    ENDAPS;

> Does a search on "World" return the para or the subpara?  (I would say the
> subpara -- "closest to leaf" -- and I think this is what users like Dave
> would expect.)
I don't know what kind of searching you guys have in mind. But the
search functionality that I use on a daily basis (Dev Studio, email
search, PDF search, HTML/browser search)... would generate two hits;
the user than picks the one which is most relevant to him.

>> >>   What's the answer?
>> >>   The specification says the following (for para)... The WebCGM
>> >>   prescription for priority of text search matching is: 'para' with
>> >>   matching 'content' (1st priority match); 'para' without 'content'
>> >>   but with recognizable single-element RESTRICTED TEXT match (2nd
>> >>   priority match); or, single-element RESTRICTED TEXT match, outside
>> >>   of any 'para' (3rd priority match).
>> >>   And for subpara: See, 'para'.
>> >>
>> >>   In other words, it's not specified :(
>> > I think that Chris wants to build a logical relationship between the
>> > attributes where there is none. You search ONE attribute at a time,
>> > not a combination of nested attributes.
>>I don't get to the same conclusion. The above wording doesn't even say
>>how to perform a search within RESTRICTED TEXT and APPEND TEXT
>>(without the 'content' attribute).

> As I suggested yesterday, perhaps that search-priority specification
> should be made into recommendations for search applications,
> non-normative, along with some clarification/guidance for how we
> expect 'content' to be used on para and subpara?  (Hello World on
> para, and just World on subpara).

> More about RT and AT below.

>> >>
>> >>   Chris made it relatively clear that if we want to have these APS
>> >>   types in WebCGM 2, we need to improve how they are specified.

> Reluctantly agree.  But I think (as I said above), we need to be
> careful about adding (e.g., from some W3C CharMod model) some
> concepts or semantics that are unrelated to the original purpose of
> para/subpara/content.

> Question for Dave: did this stuff derive from something in ATA?

>> > I agree that this is all underspecified, however, the entire search
>> > is still wide open, no syntax, nothing.
>>I'm not sure what you mean by syntax? I would expect this to be a
>>vendor feature (like the Search functionality in Web Browsers).
>> > The only way to get access is limited by the DOM functions, which don't
>> > allow you to access the RESTRICTED TEXT anyway if I remember this
>> > correctly.
>> > So right now, whoever wants to search, can retrieve the content
>> > attribute of a para or subpara using the DOM, and he can then do
>> > whatever he wants to perform a search therein.
>>That's sounds quite difficult to perform from a user's perspective.
>> > I want to point out that I brought up this issue several times, it
>> > is an important requirement of the Navy, but the group decided to
>> > turn this down and to not define text search in WebCGM 2.0.
>>Well, maybe it will have to be defined after all.
>>Kind regards,
>>  Benoit   mailto:benoit@itedo.com
>> > Regards,
>> > Dieter
>> >>
>> >>   So here are some thoughts...
>> >>   I see RESTRICTED TEXT as a block.
>> >>   I see APPEND TEXT as an inline.

> That's a novel view!  Seriously, it is an intriguing idea.  But it
> diverges from the conventional ISO CGM:1999 picture of RT and AT.
> AT is a syntactic artifice, invented solely for the purpose of
> changing text attributes within a single text primitive.
Yes, exactly like <span> in HTML. And, as you said, <span> is an

> If you look at pages 108-111 of CGM:1999, you'll see that only a
> handful of things -- basically just text attributes -- are allowed
> between RT and AT.  So for example this is illegal: 
I know.

> BEGAPS 'myPara'
>     APSATTR 'content' 'Hello World';
>     RestrText (x,y,width,height) "Hello ";
>     BEGAPS 'mySubpara'
>        APSATTR 'content' 'World';
>        ApndText final "World";
>     ENDAPS;

> Which is not to say that we couldn't put some search semantics, or
> impose a block/inline model, on a sequence of RT+AT+... +AT(final).
> But I'd prefer that we don't go there.

>> >>
>> >>   So regardless of para/subpara/content... If 'Hello' is in a
>> >>   RESTRICTED TEXT and 'World' in a child APPEND TEXT, a search on
>> >>   "Hello World" would generate a hit. Anyone agrees with me?

> Well, if there were a 'content' match, then 1.0 says that generates
> the hit (1st priority).
That wasn't the question.

> But assuming no content match, RT"Hello " + AT"World" would generate
> a hit for Hello World, IMO.  But I say that because, in my reading
> of CGM :1999,  RT+AT+...+AT is logicially a single, single-line text
> primitive.
Lets wait for the definition of block/inline... but I think you've
just explained your own definition (i.e., it's a single line of text).

> Not because of a block-inline model (which I don't yet understand).

>> >>   I would be tempted to use the same logic on 'content'. I.e., if
>> >>   'content' is specified on a para, it's a block. If it's specified on
>> >>   a child subpara, it's an inline. However, I don't know if the
>> >>   current search functionality provided by vendors adopts the same
>> >>   logic?!

> I think it does not.  But the vendors and users are the ones to
> consult on this -- some have spoken, like Forrest and Dave (whom I
> associate with the origin of this stuff, for Boeing and/or ATA
> application)
I've asked in a previous email... is this stuff even used in the real
world? An concrete example would be nice.

>> >>   I'm still waiting for more information from Chris about this, but
>> >>   why not get the conversation started right away within the group?

> Okay.

> Btw, how would you define block and inline?  You seem to be getting a 
> pretty good working sense of them.
At the moment, I'm assuming that Chris is coming from an HTML and SVG
background. Which means <p> and <span>; <text> and <tspan>.

> Best,
> -Lofton.

 Benoit   mailto:benoit@itedo.com

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