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Subject: Re: [cgmo-webcgm] Text searching
See inline... Thursday, May 4, 2006, 8:26:17 PM, you wrote: > Hi Benoit, > Some technical replies for you (and Dieter)... > At 06:31 PM 5/3/2006 -0400, Benoit Bezaire wrote: >>I'm seeing the emails coming in about this topic. And I have to state >>that I don't understand how people get to such an understanding of the >>feature by reading what is in the specification. More inline... >> >>Wednesday, May 3, 2006, 6:04:20 PM, you wrote: >> > Benoit, >> >> > I think the example does not reflect the intentions of the authors. >> >> > It should be like this >> >> (approx syntax) >> >> BEGAPS 'myPara' >> >> APSATTR 'content' 'Hello World'; >> >> ... >> >> BEGAPS 'mySubpara' >> >> APSATTR 'content' 'World'; >> >> ... >> >> ENDAPS; >> >> ENDAPS; >> >> > Hence the content attribute of the para would contain all the text of the >> > para, whereas the attribute of the subpara woul contain the text of >> > the subpara only. >>Hmmm. Isn't this an assumption? I could see it use this way when using >>para/subpara on a raster; but that may not always be the case. > Perhaps it is an assumption, but it seems to me to be at least > hinted by the text of 184.108.40.206, 220.127.116.11, and 18.104.22.168. (Or ... > perhaps I'm too biased by what the 1.0 authors meant to say, but > that they didn't express unambiguously.) Sorry, I disagree. There's no hint in there which says 'content' on a para MUST contain all text strings found in all subpara 'content's. I see things like 'may be used to identify text', 'can potentially enable text search', 'identifying matches [...] is not specified in WebCGM.', 'may be used to identify smaller fragments', 'This enables, for example [...]'. What para/subpara/content is suppose to do, is far from clear. And according to recent W3C standards would not make it into the spec if not corrected. >>Regardless, doesn't Chris' question still stand? > That question is: is para a block and subpara an inline? Yes, we're > going to have to answer the question somehow. There are a couple of > problems here. > First problem, para and subpara (as you pointed out in your proposed > reply) are APS objects which group stuff which might not even be > text. So the question, as it stands, seems meaningless. However, > para+content could be viewed as a surrogate for or abstraction of > the textual-related thingy inside its APS, and similarly for > subpara+content. Then you could phrase the question about those > "surrogates". You are playing with words here! On the call we explained to Chris that para/supara were not text elements but APS. But his question still stand and has now become: is para+'content' a block and subpara+'content' an inline. > Second problem, I still don't know what block and inline mean (Chris > is consulting with an i18n guy before sending more info). I agree. > But from XHTML, a block element is like a 'p' and an inline element > is like a 'span'. Yes. > Let's suppose HTML had a 'content' attribute (maybe you could do > this example with 'title' attribute, which is typically used for a > tooltip). > <p content="???">Hello <span content="world">world</span></p> > Would you expect ??? to reflect the entire content of the <p> > element, or only that portion of the <p> element that is outside of > the <span>? I would expect the first, i.e., ??? should be "Hello > world". I would have no expectation. I don't know any specification that puts restrictions on character data for an attribute. It's either a predefined set of values or plain character data. I think using HTML 'alt' would be a better comparison... and you will notice that it can only be specified on IMG, AREA, APPLET, and INPUT. It cannot be used on <p> and <span>, thus most (if not all) the WebCGM problems related to this do not exist in HTML. > This is the way I think about para and subpara (and apparently some > others do as well). However, from the example that Chris posed, I > may be entirely off base as to the meaning of "block" and "inline". I don't think we are way off on the block/inline thing. But I do think that using an attribute (content) on APS which can be nested and possibly already readable, to be a mistake. > More... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Benoit Bezaire [mailto:email@example.com] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:53 PM >> >> To: firstname.lastname@example.org >> >> Subject: [cgmo-webcgm] Text searching >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> On the call today, Chris asked me the following question... Assume >> >> we have: >> >> >> >> (approx syntax) >> >> BEGAPS 'myPara' >> >> APSATTR 'content' 'Hello'; >> >> ... >> >> BEGAPS 'mySubpara' >> >> APSATTR 'content' 'World'; >> >> ... >> >> ENDAPS; >> >> ENDAPS; >> >> >> >> And he does a text search on the string "Hello World", will he get a >> >> hit, yes or no? >> >> >> >> I believe this to be an indirect way of asking/answering if >> >> 'subpara' is an inline or a block. >> >> >> >> If we say, yes there's a hit, then we've defined 'subpara' as >> >> inline, if we say, no there's no hit, it's a block. > I'd say "no hit". But the problem here is that the 1.0 authors designed > this with a very specific ad hoc semantic in mind -- like <p> and <span> -- > and the question is ... well, baffling to me still. > That doesn't mean that we can't answer it, once we know what block and > inline mean, but we need to be a little careful of adding semantic that > wasn't there and not intended in 1.0. > Btw, we have other under-spec problems as well. In this example > BEGAPS 'myPara' > APSATTR 'content' 'Hello World'; > ... > BEGAPS 'mySubpara' > APSATTR 'content' 'World'; > ... > ENDAPS; > ENDAPS; > Does a search on "World" return the para or the subpara? (I would say the > subpara -- "closest to leaf" -- and I think this is what users like Dave > would expect.) I don't know what kind of searching you guys have in mind. But the search functionality that I use on a daily basis (Dev Studio, email search, PDF search, HTML/browser search)... would generate two hits; the user than picks the one which is most relevant to him. >> >> What's the answer? >> >> The specification says the following (for para)... The WebCGM >> >> prescription for priority of text search matching is: 'para' with >> >> matching 'content' (1st priority match); 'para' without 'content' >> >> but with recognizable single-element RESTRICTED TEXT match (2nd >> >> priority match); or, single-element RESTRICTED TEXT match, outside >> >> of any 'para' (3rd priority match). >> >> And for subpara: See 22.214.171.124, 'para'. >> >> >> >> In other words, it's not specified :( >> > I think that Chris wants to build a logical relationship between the >> > attributes where there is none. You search ONE attribute at a time, >> > not a combination of nested attributes. >>I don't get to the same conclusion. The above wording doesn't even say >>how to perform a search within RESTRICTED TEXT and APPEND TEXT >>(without the 'content' attribute). > As I suggested yesterday, perhaps that search-priority specification > should be made into recommendations for search applications, > non-normative, along with some clarification/guidance for how we > expect 'content' to be used on para and subpara? (Hello World on > para, and just World on subpara). > More about RT and AT below. >> >> >> >> Chris made it relatively clear that if we want to have these APS >> >> types in WebCGM 2, we need to improve how they are specified. > Reluctantly agree. But I think (as I said above), we need to be > careful about adding (e.g., from some W3C CharMod model) some > concepts or semantics that are unrelated to the original purpose of > para/subpara/content. > Question for Dave: did this stuff derive from something in ATA? >> > I agree that this is all underspecified, however, the entire search >> > is still wide open, no syntax, nothing. >>I'm not sure what you mean by syntax? I would expect this to be a >>vendor feature (like the Search functionality in Web Browsers). >> >> > The only way to get access is limited by the DOM functions, which don't >> > allow you to access the RESTRICTED TEXT anyway if I remember this >> > correctly. >> >> > So right now, whoever wants to search, can retrieve the content >> > attribute of a para or subpara using the DOM, and he can then do >> > whatever he wants to perform a search therein. >>That's sounds quite difficult to perform from a user's perspective. >> >> > I want to point out that I brought up this issue several times, it >> > is an important requirement of the Navy, but the group decided to >> > turn this down and to not define text search in WebCGM 2.0. >>Well, maybe it will have to be defined after all. >> >>Kind regards, >> Benoit mailto:email@example.com >> >> > Regards, >> > Dieter >> >> >> >> So here are some thoughts... >> >> I see RESTRICTED TEXT as a block. >> >> I see APPEND TEXT as an inline. > That's a novel view! Seriously, it is an intriguing idea. But it > diverges from the conventional ISO CGM:1999 picture of RT and AT. > AT is a syntactic artifice, invented solely for the purpose of > changing text attributes within a single text primitive. Yes, exactly like <span> in HTML. And, as you said, <span> is an inline. > If you look at pages 108-111 of CGM:1999, you'll see that only a > handful of things -- basically just text attributes -- are allowed > between RT and AT. So for example this is illegal: I know. > BEGAPS 'myPara' > APSATTR 'content' 'Hello World'; > RestrText (x,y,width,height) "Hello "; > BEGAPS 'mySubpara' > APSATTR 'content' 'World'; > ApndText final "World"; > ENDAPS; > ENDAPS; > Which is not to say that we couldn't put some search semantics, or > impose a block/inline model, on a sequence of RT+AT+... +AT(final). > But I'd prefer that we don't go there. >> >> >> >> So regardless of para/subpara/content... If 'Hello' is in a >> >> RESTRICTED TEXT and 'World' in a child APPEND TEXT, a search on >> >> "Hello World" would generate a hit. Anyone agrees with me? > Well, if there were a 'content' match, then 1.0 says that generates > the hit (1st priority). That wasn't the question. > But assuming no content match, RT"Hello " + AT"World" would generate > a hit for Hello World, IMO. But I say that because, in my reading > of CGM :1999, RT+AT+...+AT is logicially a single, single-line text > primitive. Lets wait for the definition of block/inline... but I think you've just explained your own definition (i.e., it's a single line of text). > Not because of a block-inline model (which I don't yet understand). >> >> I would be tempted to use the same logic on 'content'. I.e., if >> >> 'content' is specified on a para, it's a block. If it's specified on >> >> a child subpara, it's an inline. However, I don't know if the >> >> current search functionality provided by vendors adopts the same >> >> logic?! > I think it does not. But the vendors and users are the ones to > consult on this -- some have spoken, like Forrest and Dave (whom I > associate with the origin of this stuff, for Boeing and/or ATA > application) I've asked in a previous email... is this stuff even used in the real world? An concrete example would be nice. >> >> I'm still waiting for more information from Chris about this, but >> >> why not get the conversation started right away within the group? > Okay. > Btw, how would you define block and inline? You seem to be getting a > pretty good working sense of them. At the moment, I'm assuming that Chris is coming from an HTML and SVG background. Which means <p> and <span>; <text> and <tspan>. > Best, > -Lofton. -- Regards, Benoit mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. 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