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Subject: RE: [cgmo-webcgm] RE: about transform [was RE: [cgmo-webcgm] Groups - Proposed WebCGM 2.1 ...]


David,

I would object to that, although I respect your opinion.

SVG defines animation as the ability to change vector graphics over time
[1], and it is based on SMIL, another standard. We should not introduce
a new definition of animation.

At the same time, applying a transform (move, rotate, scale), is clearly
a DOM method [2]. Again, why should we choose a different way for CGM?

I have no objections to start a discussion about expanding the WebCGM
DOM, however,
- this is not animation
- there are better ways to accomplish these kind of things than trying
to 
  script transforms from the outside.

I remind everybody of the hotspot overlays in SGML, and the nightmares
they caused. There is absolutely no reason why we should make the same
mistake again.

Regards,
Dieter


[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/animate.html#Introduction
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/coords.html#InterfaceSVGTransform


-----Original Message-----
From: Cruikshank, David W [mailto:david.w.cruikshank@boeing.com] 
Sent: Dienstag, 4. September 2007 23:49
To: Weidenbrueck, Dieter; Lofton Henderson; Bezaire, Benoit;
cgmo-webcgm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [cgmo-webcgm] RE: about transform [was RE: [cgmo-webcgm]
Groups - Proposed WebCGM 2.1 ...]

Dieter,

While animation is the movement of something through time, I don't think
our requirements view "time" as an absolute.  There are lots of
defintions of animation on the web (see:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:animation&sa=X&oi=gl
ossary_definition&ct=title). My favorite is "The way objects enter
and/or exit a PowerPoint slide."  Some of the animation that Molly
described was exactly that.  Movement of an object from point A to point
B.  Molly would look at it and say I'll probably generate 29 copies of
that object along the path from A to B and turn the visibility off and
on to create a "pleasing" movement.  She didn't say "I have to move this
object from point A to point B in 3.48 seconds". 

So in my opinion, transforming an object to move it or rotate it is
animation even if it's not tied to a specific time line.

Thx...Dave


Technical Fellow - Graphics/Digital Data Interchange Boeing Commercial
Airplane 206.544.3560, fax 206.662.3734 david.w.cruikshank@boeing.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Weidenbrueck, Dieter [mailto:dweidenbrueck@ptc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 2:11 PM
To: Lofton Henderson; Bezaire, Benoit; cgmo-webcgm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [cgmo-webcgm] RE: about transform [was RE: [cgmo-webcgm]
Groups - Proposed WebCGM 2.1 ...]

Lofton,

>I think there was general agreement (heeding the experienced advice of
>Itedo!) that declarative animation is beyond the scope of a "quick
2.1".

Our point was that it doesn't make sense to start to work on something
big like declarative animation given the small list of people who may
contribute to this kind of work. Very quickly the discussions would
become lengthy, just look at the SVG story.
Also, there should be early discussions with W3C about their opinion
regarding animation in CGM, given the fact that SVG already supports
animation.
So I think animation is not only beyond the scope of 2.1, we shouldn't
start it unless we have resources and timely implementations.


What we are discussing now has nothing to do with animation at all, and
it shouldn't be called this way. We are simply applying geometrical
transforms to static objects, happening immediately. There is no
timeline or similar involved.
You could also say that we are switching modes, e.g. switch open or
closed.

So if we expand the DOM to support changing geometry, we open a box that
we had kept closed so far, which is access and manipulation of
primitives and coordinates.

I completely understand that users try everything to accomplish their
goal, however, I am not inclined to introduce something that already
failed inside SVG here.

I will try to be on the call tomorrow, we can discuss then.

Regards,
Dieter


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