Re: [chairs] Individual members representation?

["Daniel Greenwood" <dang@mit.edu>]

Hmm - good points.  I like the idea of setting up a list for these folks to
create community, test to see if there are common interests, and to create a
fertile group for them to get organized and see what if anything they desire
(including simply to field a candidate if they like).  Any formal request
for a change in board structure along the proposed lines would more
naturally come from, and be the result of, such a group process.  Nice and
simple.  (Personally, I think they'd be wise to seek such an outcome).

I don't see why not an OASIS list - it seems like a relevant and official
sort of activity to me.

Incidentally, I just used the term "indie" because I'd been typing on my
blackberry and would do anything to shorten words - not because I meant to
imply independance.

Thanks,
 - Dan

==================================================
|  Daniel J. Greenwood, Esq.
|  Director, mit E-Commerce Architecture Program
|  Lecturer, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
|  77 Massachusetts Avenue, Room 7-231
|  Cambridge, MA 02139
|     http://ecitizen.mit.edu
|     or http://www.civics.com
|     Mobile: 617-851-0412
|     Desk: 617-868-1746
|     dang@mit.edu
==================================================

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Gutentag" <Eduardo.Gutentag@Sun.COM>
To: "Daniel Greenwood" <dang@mit.edu>
Cc: <david@drrw.info>; <chairs@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [chairs] Individual members representation?


>
>
> Daniel Greenwood wrote:
> > Eduardo, you mentioned "As to 'reports back from the board', below: are
you implying
> > that company members receive reports back from the board? If
> > so, you're mistaken. If you want to receive reports from the
> > Board, you can read, like anybody else, the Board minutes."
> >
>  > I think the reality is that people who serve on boards like this are
reps of
>  > their companies on an important level. Time spent on boards of industry
associations
>  > that I have served on are always considered part of my scope of work -
I didn't/don't
>  > (and assume you and other do not) take vacation days to serve - true?
And I got/get
>  > reimbursed for travel, etc from the company that is has lots of say re:
my job
>  > description, my deliverables, my professional priorities, etc, etc. And
as such,
>  > performance reviews, strategy sessions and general activity reports all
reflect
>  > and support the contention that on a "real politik" level, industry
employee reps
>  > are reps of their corporation
>
> all of the above is basically true, and I wouldn't deny it for a second.
>
>  > and serve the interests of (and report back to) the
>  > principal for whom they are an employed agent of.
>
> the above is not necessarily the case. Although I'm sorely tempted to
> talk about myself and my predecessors in the Board, that would surely
> sound and look like grandstanding, so I won't, but I can attest to
> witnessing more than one case of employess from other companies acting
> for the benefit of the OASIS membership in general and not that of their
> employers in particular. The culture of this Board strongly encourages
this
> attitude.
>
>  > This does not mean copmanies in
>  > general get reports, but it does suggest a model that may be useful for
indie members.
>  >
>  > There is nothing wrong with any of the above - in fact, it is helpful
to have
>  > balanced representation from the key big industry players (and as you
said, people
>  > vote with that in mind).  The legal technicalities (vote for
individuals, etc) you
>  > mentioned are interesting, but don't tell the full story of how the
power and politics
>  > work.
> >
> > Given that, why not have some representation for indie members
specifically?
>
> I'm not opposed in principle. I just don't see how it would work. There
are a
> couple of problems. First is the issue of "guaranteeing" slots for an
individual
> member in the Board (BTW, I disagree with the use of "indie" for
individual
> members, since that generally means "independent", but there is no
guarantee
> of independence among our individual members, so I just don't like it),
simply
> because there is currently no process whereby this could be accomplished,
and
> because it's a really slippery slope from there to guaranteeing slots for
> particular corporations or for particular world regions. Where do you
stop?
> What are the criteria? Why not leave this to the wisdom of the electorate?
> (And do please remember that big corporations are just a small percentage
of
> the OASIS voting membership, which is increasingly composed of small user
> companies.Oh, and the assumption that big corporations would not vote for
> individual Board members is probably false, you know...)
>
> Another problem is, of course, whether you would indeed represent the
interests
> of David RR Webber if you were elected to the Board. Would you? Why would
you?
> How do you know what his interests are? Or vice versa, if he were elected?
>
> So if you were to ask me what my recommendation would be (and why would
you?)
> my answer is: get a few individual members together (and the chairs list
> is certainly not the place to do this), establish an email list for such
> (not necessarily an OASIS one), bring in as many individual members as you
> can, elect a candidate and field him/her at the next BoD elections.
>
> I will now go back to enjoying my weekend in the pursuit of other
> interests...
>
>
> >
> >  - Dan
> > ===============================
> > | Daniel J. Greenwood, Esq.
> > | Director and Lecturer
> > |  The MIT E-Commerce
> > |    Architecture Program (ECAP)
> > |       Massachusetts
> > |          Institute of
> > |             Technology
> > | 77 Mass. Avenue, Room 7-231
> > | Cambridge, MA 02139
> > |     http://ecitizen.mit.edu
> > |     or http://www.civics.com
> > |     Mobile: 617-851-0412
> > |     Desk: 617-868-1746
> > |     dang@mit.edu
> > ================================
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Eduardo Gutentag <Eduardo.Gutentag@Sun.COM>
> > Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:27:44
> > To:David RR Webber <david@drrw.info>
> > Cc:Chairs OASIS <chairs@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > Subject: Re: [chairs] Individual members representation?
> >
> > Interesting ideas, but more in the assumptions they reveal than
> > in their reflections of reality.
> >
> > Board members are elected as individuals, not as representatives
> > of companies. At least that's how theoretically things should
> > be. I'm not sure, of course, whether that's the reality or not,
> > (how many voted for me as myself or as an employee of Sun?)
> > but we Board members are supposed to think in terms of OASIS's
> > interests *above everything else* when functioning as such.
> >
> > Because Board members are elected as individuals, there is in
> > fact no constraints on whether a BoD member is a company
> > employee or an individual member, so if any individual member
> > wants to run for BoD membership, go ahead. In fact, BoD members
> > don't even have to be OASIS members.
> >
> > As to "reports back from the board", below: are you implying
> > that company members receive reports back from the board? If
> > so, you're mistaken. If you want to receive reports from the
> > Board, you can read, like anybody else, the Board minutes.
> >
> > Also, how any of your proposals would help towards working
> > better with ISO et al. is a mystery to me.
> >
> > David RR Webber wrote:
> >
> >>As we are approaching year end some retrospective thoughts and
> >>looks ahead occur.
> >>
> >>Would it make sense to add a Board member who represents all
> >>the individual members?
> >>
> >>Clearly there are large numbers now contributing to every OASIS
> >>team.  But only corporate members get to vote and nominate
> >>board members.
> >>
> >>Do we need balance, and would input from individual members help?
> >>Would this help toward working with groups such as ISO in the
> >>future?
> >>
> >>Some ground rules would be needed - and also OASIS would need
> >>to cover expenses for the person - as obviously they do not have
> >>a corporate sponsor.  If the person subsequently joined a corporation
> >>would this automatically trigger a new appointment - or could it
> >>be discretionary?
> >>
> >>We could certainly also have a meeting room and feedback area
> >>for individual members via Kavi as another resource.
> >>
> >>Personally as an individual member I would definately value reports
> >>back from the board from an independent member there.
> >>
> >>OK - so I've taken the lid off a large can of worms here, but this
> >>was an itch so I thought I'd better scratch it!
> >>
> >>What are the pro's and con's?  Is this workable?
> >>
> >>DW.
> >
> >
>
> --
> Eduardo Gutentag               |         e-mail: eduardo.gutentag@Sun.COM
> Web Technologies and Standards |         Phone:  +1 510 550 4616 x31442
> Sun Microsystems Inc.          |
> W3C AC Rep / OASIS BoD
>