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Subject: RE: [cti-taxii] Question about multiple trust group support

Are there any comments on this? If not, I’d like to assert that this represents the (for now) general feelings of the group and take the following actions:


·         Update the REST API [1] to: remove groups, add the concept of an API Base, document the DNS SRV concept

·         Update the REST API to call out the removed capabilities: General group discovery and no common convention for API Base beyond the “well known value”

·         Attempt to describe trust groups in a way that would be in the spec (e.g., say they exist, but say that they are explicitly not in the spec)


If we are in rough agreement about the REST API (I think we are – but please speak up if you have concerns/comments that are not accounted for), working through the scenario Bret’s offered would be a good way to validate the REST API’s current state, at least for one use-case/workflow.


Thank you.



[1] https://github.com/TAXIIProject/TAXII-Specifications/wiki/HTTP-REST-API-for-TAXII-2.0


From: cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Davidson II, Mark S
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:26 AM
To: Thompson, Dean <Dean.Thompson@anz.com>; 'cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org' <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject: RE: [cti-taxii] Question about multiple trust group support


I realize my email gets down into the design a bit, but here’s what I’m thinking:


·         Trust groups are a thing, they just don’t belong inside the scope of the spec.

·         The REST API gets updated to remove the “/groups/<groupname>/” layer, and only has the “/channels/<channelname>” part

·         Multiple instances of the REST API can exist on a server

·         Each instance of the REST API has something called an “API Base” (we can probably pick a better name) that is the root of the REST API instance. One server can have as many “API Bases” as they like.


I see there being two basic cases for TAXII integration: configuration-based, and auto-discovery.


In the auto-discovery case, discovery would probably be based off of a DNS SRV record. A DNS SRV record would advertise something like “The TAXII server I want you to use is at $hostname:$port” (Note: You can NOT specify a URL in DNS SRV records). The spec could have an algorithm for coming up with a well-known “API Base” from DNS – notionally https://$hostname:$port/well-known-value/. For this to work, there’d have to be a requirement/expectation that any TAXII Server advertised in DNS has this well-known API base. I see this as a critical enabler for plug-and-play capabilities.


In the configuration-based case, I think all you have to do is configure a client to use the API Base – e.g., if I had an online threat portal, I could say “If you want to use my threat portal, use https://example.com:443/my_portal_api_base/ as your API base”. This would of course require other products to allow a configurable API Base (and possible multiple configurable API bases for integrating with multiple TAXII Servers).


This idea draws a boundary around channel groupings, but without specifying a group concept in the spec. If your implementation only needs one API base – go for it. If you want multiple API bases for multiple some other reason (multiple groups, sub-groups, etc), you can have that.


I do see a couple drawbacks to this design, as compared to groups being in the spec:


·         No more auto-discovery of groups

o   This could be mitigated by somehow adding another feature (maybe)

·         There might not be a common convention for multiple API bases (e.g., I might use hostnames, you might use ports, somebody else might use URLs).

o   Hopefully this is mitigated by having the API base be an opaque string.


Thoughts? I’m particularly interested in drawbacks I didn’t call out.


Thank you.




From: cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Thompson, Dean
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 6:14 AM
To: 'cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org' <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject: RE: [cti-taxii] Question about multiple trust group support





I tend to agree with Trey’s comments with each vendor and technology implementation basically making their own interpretation of what a trust group is and hence it could lead to a number of issues with coding and implementations.  Is another way to approach the problem (and maybe more true to form of what I think TAXII is when I think of it) to use something like PKI in the body of the TAXII message and hence you can only use the data if you have a valid key which belongs to a certain trust group.  This doesn’t get around the problem of key exchange and identifying/ensuring trust relationships although you could potentially add some verbage to the TAXII syntax to allow for key exchange. 


It would also potentially deal with trust repositories where other 3rd parties whether they are channels or brokers hold onto the data or act as a conduit for them.  Whilst in transit the indicators are protected and as long as the 3rd party broker or channel management knows how to read the header information can ensure delivery of the message.  It also potentially removes the need to have multiple channels setup for different trust groups.  Various trust groups could exist on the one channel, it is the consumer that needs to have the key to unlock and use the data.


Just an idea.






From: cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Trey Darley
Sent: Thursday, 24 September 2015 6:08 PM
To: Adam Cooper; Jason Keirstead
Cc: Jordan, Bret; cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] Question about multiple trust group support


I agree that trust groups are likely to remain vendor-specific and hence it's pointless trying to formalize trust groups per se in TAXII 2.0.


At the same time, TAXII 2.0 *should* have a mechanism for exchange of trust group data between compatible systems. If you grok a vendor's notion of trustgroups, you can do something with it. Otherwise, you can safely ignore it. 


I envisage this as an optional block, a la (total strawman):














Trey Darley

Senior Security Engineer

Soltra | An FS-ISAC & DTCC Company


From: cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org> on behalf of Adam Cooper <adam.cooper@digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk>
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 08:37
To: Jason Keirstead
Cc: Jordan, Bret; cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] Question about multiple trust group support


I have to agree with Jason: trust groups can be implemented in many ways and are often vendor or technology specific. Limiting implementation options through specification under TAXII adds nothing to the core purpose of TAXII in my mind and may actually limit adoption in COTS products. 


Perhaps I am looking at this from a slightly purist approach but there are two things at play here: 1) the TAXII protocol, and 2) TAXII servers. The protocol should in my opinion should NOT be implementation specific and focus on the primary purpose of TAXII i.e. the exchange of cyber threat information. A TAXII server, again in my opinion, should be something that implements the protocol but can do so in any way the developer/vendor chooses provided it is compliant with the protocol standard. The TAXII server (implementation) is then able to implement things like trust groups freely. 







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