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Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
- From: "Jason Keirstead" <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
- To: Drew Varner <drew.varner@ninefx.com>
- Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 21:11:48 +0000
> I donât see why we canât have both a complex JSON-POSTing
query endpoint and simple GET queries. I think the the simple endpoint
capabilities will reflect a base level of TAXII compliance and the complex
may be and advanced.
This is where I disagree. Having a "simple"
query endpoint and a to-be-defined-future "complex" query endpoint,
to me, represents two ways to do the same thing, and me having to implement
multiple different code paths.
It also means the "simple"
query endpoint is throw-away work, as it doesn't solve any of my use cases.
> I think the real value of JSON-encoded queries
is the ability to structure the queries, including nested values and complex
types, rather than a simple collection of key/value pairs.
Sorry You're kind of losing me here
-because JSON-encoded complex queries is not what Brett proposed. It's
actually closer to our proposal, where the RFI objects are JSON.
> Could you expand on this? I donât understand
what makes GET different than POST for asynchronous calls.
Sorry I should probably have expanded
on this. It relies on utilizing TAXII Channels or a messaging system to
define who should receive the response. This is all outlined in detail
in the proposal.
From:
Drew Varner <drew.varner@ninefx.com>
To:
Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
Cc:
Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>,
"cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>,
Gary Jay Katz <gary.katz@FireEye.com>, Matt Pladna <mpladna@lookingglasscyber.com>
Date:
11/27/2018 02:51 PM
Subject:
Re: [cti-taxii]
[EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
> It makes it very hard in the future to
implement new types of queries in TAXII as there is no definition of how
they will inter-operate.
I donât see why we canât have both a complex JSON-POSTing query endpoint
and simple GET queries. I think the the simple endpoint capabilities will
reflect a base level of TAXII compliance and the complex may be and advanced.
Getting SDOs and their associated SROs will probably require multiple queries
to the simple endpoint. I think thatâs the price we pay for simplicity.
I think the real value of JSON-encoded queries is the ability to structure
the queries, including nested values and complex types, rather than a simple
collection of key/value pairs. That will make managing complex queries
easier, allowing a quasi-type variant system. GraphQL is a good example.
You can see how itâs difficult to combine even simple URL filter parameters
on the Objects endpoint. The JSON POST endpoint may alleviate that. Maybe
a TAXII query language will be necessary in the future.
> - Having queries based on GET URIs means It isn't possible to make
them work in an asynchronous mode
Could you expand on this? I donât understand what makes GET different
than POST for asynchronous calls.
> When you get into other more advanced types of queries, you'll find
that you can not easily use this kind of approach as you will start constantly
running into length limitations in the URI as you can't construct a GET
request longer than 8KB and have it reliably work in production.
I understand that Iâll have to make changes to my HTTP listener or app
serverâs config if I wanted to allow large GET requests. I donât think
this is different that what Iâll have to do if I want to allow large Bundles
or Base64 encoded binaries in STIX payloads, if I want to allow that. I
think the goal of this endpoint is to allow simple queries, so if we have
a 20kB GET request, itâs no longer a simple endpoint and users will clamor
for a complex query endpoint.
I like Bretâs idea, but I think we could just as easily add it to the
Objects endpoint. SROs are just Objects in Collections.
match[category]=<stix-category> where category is the value from
the set [âdataâ, ârelationship"]
match[related-to]=<stix-id>
If we do end up with an SRO-specific endpoint, it feels weird not having
an SDO endpoint.
- Drew
> On Nov 26, 2018, at 2:24 PM, Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
wrote:
>
> The reasons I don't like this idea of tacking on a new endpoint for
every type of search are the follows:
>
> - The most important one, and I already raised below a few times -
It makes it very hard in the future to implement new types of queries in
TAXII as there is no definition of how they will inter-operate. IE, how
do I do a search *and* get the relationships for the results? Its not possible.
The RFI approach allows one to add new methods to query easily, and even
allow interrogation of supported methods and because it is modular, it
defines how these different methods inter-operate.
>
> - Having queries based on GET URIs means It isn't possible to make
them work in an asynchronous mode - they are always synchronous and blocking.
When you look at more complex queries, they will very often want to be
executed in an asynchronous mode as they may take multiple minutes or longer
to execute.
>
> - When you get into other more advanced types of queries, you'll find
that you can not easily use this kind of approach as you will start constantly
running into length limitations in the URI as you can't construct a GET
request longer than 8KB and have it reliably work in production.
>
> -
> Jason Keirstead
> Lead Architect - IBM Security Connect
> www.ibm.com/security
>
> "Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left
by those who hustle." - Unknown
>
>
>
>
> From: Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
> To: Matt Pladna <mpladna@lookingglasscyber.com>,
Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
> Cc: Gary Jay Katz <gary.katz@FireEye.com>,
"cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Date: 11/26/2018 02:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re:
[cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
> Sent by: <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
>
>
>
> It really feels like the information-request and the Observed Data
search are totally different thing than normal RESTful queries that allow
pivoting.
>
> While the decision is not mine, I generally prefer simple things being
simple.
>
> In the long-term view I would see us having a set of RESTful endpoints
that do really basic queries. I would also see us having actual search
endpoints for more complicated stuff later on that some implementations
will not support. Meaning, the search end points will be OPTIONAL
to implement.
>
> Examples of what we have today
>
> {api-root}/collections/{id}/objects/?match[{key}]={value}
> {api-root}/collections/{id}/objects/versions/
>
> Examples of what we could add
>
> {api-root}/collections/{id}/relationships/related/
> {api-root}/collections/{id}/search/
> {api-root}/search/
>
> The last two would be for the more detailed query object support,
like what Jason and Terry have proposed. But that is going to take
us a lot longer to figure out and get working. A simple RESTful path
would be much easier to do in the short term, I think. If I am wrong,
and the majority of the TC thinks we should do the other way, please correct
me.
>
> It seems like the processing of an arbitrary query object is a LOT
more work, than parsing a simple string value off of a URL parameter. If
we do not want to do:
>
> {api-root}/collections/{id}/relationships/related/
>
> We could always just do:
> {api-root}/collections/{id}/objects/?match[type]=relationship&match[related]={stixid}
>
> Bret
>
>
>
>
> From: Matt Pladna <mpladna@lookingglasscyber.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2018 10:28:28 AM
> To: Bret Jordan; Jason Keirstead
> Cc: Gary Jay Katz; cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
>
> Would it be tenable to have a hybrid approach where we take the proposal
here https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_1Cy-5F9Bh5tKEkDHGg2iv5c3AwriqVr7ygbKXWOv4-2DuHxs_edit-23heading-3Dh.1jcqb6vc5y7zand&d=DwIFaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=k6Q07xZDujljzkKqZUfupXFUDIHGIiq-Sl_u1bw0hyA&m=GxNVYTfZ0tdDiP0_-xzIfpPNyAZkQw5kRpJ9ptokX4w&s=6IBCTUiOS-h0oAO37JhsivcOcGm6_xya0u_OhH-PzGM&e=scope it down to only handle relationship (specifically related-to) queries?
>
> Meaning the google doc will have one information-request type, which
will be related-to query requests. It can still be extended later
with more types. Rather than return a specific response type (information-response)
what if it just returned the STIX content as well (in a bundle? Stream?)?
If a TAXII type of information-response is necessary later, we can
add it and support STIX 2 for backward compatibility.
>
> I think having a type dedicated to taking a query request is a good
idea. JSON query/information request objects can be extended in the
future and I think will give us more options than relying on endpoints
and parameters in the URL.
>
> If an endpoint of â<api-root>/collections/<id>/information-request/â
is too generic, we could make the types explicit in the URL:
> â<api-root>/collections/<id>/information-request/related-toâ
>
> Iâm not sure which is better, but does this help reduce scope to
something we can do soon AND leave us in a place to grow?
>
> From: <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org> on behalf of Bret Jordan
<Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 09:02
> To: Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
> Cc: Gary Jay Katz <gary.katz@FireEye.com>, "cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org"
<cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
>
> Jason,
>
> If you remember we had a global search in some of the early drafts
of 2.0. But it was pulled because several people did not like it.
I think any kind of search like that would need to be done at both
the collection level and at the api-root level, where the api-root level
is optional to implement.
>
> All,
>
> So far we have only heard from 6 people in the TC so far. I
would like to hear what everyone else thinks.
>
> I plan on talking about this on next weeks working call, just FYI.
>
> Bret
> Sent from my Commodore 64
>
> PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415
0050
>
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 6:25 AM, Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
wrote:
> I have no issue with the concept of getting an MVP, out so long as
the future is considered so we don't box ourselves into a corner. I have
already given very specific future-facing examples of problems this MVP
introduces, that need to be thought through. We have already been down
this path, with several breaking changes between TAXII 2.0 and TAXII 2.1,
and parties coming to the fore saying they are "waiting" for
2.1 so they don't have to re-do implementations.
>
> If TAXII 2.2 introduces more breaking changes because we did not consider
all the use cases and tried to rush things out, then we are going to rapidly
start to loose faith in the marketplace.
>
> I'll also again re-iterate that it is very much debatable even if
this is the actual MVP we need at this point in time. It depends highly
on where in the intelligence ecosystem you sit. I will take a FireEye product
as an example - if I have a file hash and during a hunt I want to query
Helix using it's API for all of the sightings of that file hash, this MVP
does not help me. We have no way to do this extremely basic use case in
STIX today. I think this global query use case is *more* critical than
being able to de-reference a relationship only inside a single collection...
collections after all are often mirrored wholesale.
>
> RE query - this is the exact use case that the STIX Extension process
is meant to solve, by forcing folks down a path where proposals are implemented
and tested and vetted in the wild before they make it into the standard.
I think that anything we do along the lines of Query should have to be
proven in the market before it makes it into the spec along with the potential
for future breakages.
>
> -
> Jason Keirstead
> Lead Architect - IBM Security Connect
> www.ibm.com/security
>
> "Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left
by those who hustle." - Unknown
>
>
>
>
> From: Gary Jay Katz <gary.katz@FireEye.com>
> To: Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>,
Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
> Cc: "cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org"
<cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Date: 11/19/2018 07:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re:
[cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
> Sent by: <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
>
>
>
>
> Jason,
> Thatâs a good question. One which I can provide
my response, but I believe requires a larger discussion, which is part
of the reason why I believe we should get an MVP out now, rather than waiting.
To Bretâs point, Iâd rather not wait 6-12 months to get a release
out.
>
> Currently we have ways to easily search for a STIX object.
It does not allow for STIX querying or the complex use cases we have
identified, but it does allow someone to easily retrieve an SDO. And
that is a good thing. There should be an easy way to perform a search,
whether that is for an object or a relationship and it should be easy for
a consumer to use that functionality to traverse the graph and easy for
a producer to implement such functionality. Not every producer will
have a backend database (or the requirements) to allow for complex querying.
I truthfully do not see the issue with allowing restful methods to
easily traverse the graph and then later add in full query support where
you could accomplish the same thing in addition to much more powerful queries.
People may disagree, and we can and should debate this as TAXII query
is designed, but I personally do not believe that the full TAXII query
support needs to follow the same pattern as is defined for retrieving an
SDO or SRO.
>
> Just my opinion, but hope it helps explain where my thoughts are.
> -Gary
>
>
> From: Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018 at 4:41 PM
> To: Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>, Gary Katz
<gary.katz@FireEye.com>
> Cc: "cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
>
> This provides a solution that we can have now. At the current rate
any more advanced solution is at least 6-12 more months away. Yes,
we may need to do things differently in the future, but that is okay. We
can always deprecate features as needed. But I figured a more RESTful design
would get us up and going sooner rather than later.
>
> By my count the following individuals support the proposal I have
submitted:
> Myself
> Drew
> Nicholas
> Sean
> Gary
>
> The individuals that do not support it:
> Jason
>
> I am curious to hear what others have to say. Can everyone please
chime in on this debate.
>
> Bret
>
>
> From: Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 2:25:37 PM
> To: Gary Jay Katz
> Cc: Bret Jordan; cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: Re: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
>
> Gary - how would you propose in the future we can extend or expand
this approach, without redoing it from scratch?
>
> This is the problem with having query-specific endpoints or query
parameters such as "related to" - they can't be extended or added
to in any logical way.
>
> It will result in either no way to actually do combinations of parameters,
or an unworkable mishmash of normative text quantifying all of the edge
cases of which endpoints can be combined with which others to get what
behaviour.
>
> Sent from IBM Verse
> Gary Jay Katz --- Re: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII
Query / Search ---
>
> From:
"Gary Jay Katz" <gary.katz@FireEye.com>
> To:
"Jason Keirstead" <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>, "Bret
Jordan" <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
> Cc:
cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org
> Date:
Mon, Nov 19, 2018 4:55 PM
> Subject:
Re: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query /
Search
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jason,
> I believe you are correct, there are a number of complex
use cases that this would not meet. For those that remember back
to some of the early face-to-face meetings, I pushed for trying to find
a solution that met all of these solutions in the first release. I
now believe that this needs to be taken in parts. There may be certain
TAXII implementations that only need to and are able to support basic search
and pivoting, while others will be built to perform complex querying such
as what you are suggesting.
>
> Having an ability to easily query relationships and
pivot off of them which does not support the more complex use cases, does
not mean that the capability needs to be rewritten or that those complex
use cases are invalid. We just need ways to do the simple things
simply, while eventually put in place the ability to do the complex capabilities.
>
> Currently we have no ability to query relationships or
pivot. This is a blocker for anyone trying to provide the baseline
capabilities to support the STIX model using TAXII. I would suggest
we get the baseline capabilities in place to allow releasing a minimal
viable product in the near-term while continuing to work towards more advanced
query capabilities in a future release.
>
> -Gary
>
> From: <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org> on behalf of Jason Keirstead
<Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
> Date: Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:38 PM
> To: Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
> Cc: "cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Subject: [cti-taxii] Re: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
>
> The problem with this approach of "getting something done in
a a few days", is it is highly likely it will have to be re-done in
the future because it isn't considering the other use cases.
>
> For example - In the future how can I find all sightings related to
Object Foo that match the indicator 1.2.3.4, with your proposal? Seeing
how any future "match the indicator" portion would be an entirely
different endpoint than the "related-to" endpoint, I now can't
combine them - and therefore would have to make multiple - perhaps dozens,
hundreds, or even thousands of round-trips to the server to collect this
information.
>
> -
> Jason Keirstead
> Lead Architect - IBM Security Connect
> www.ibm.com/security
>
> "Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left
by those who hustle." - Unknown
>
>
>
>
> From: Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
> To: Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
> Cc: "cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org"
<cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Date: 11/19/2018 04:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII
Query / Search
>
>
>
>
>
> Jason, the proposal you have submitted is valid, and one potential
solution. However, it represents a fair bit of complexity on the
specification and on implementations. There are also a lot of unanswered
questions about how it would actually be done. To support this, we would
also need to create several conformance levels for it, which is non-trivial.
>
> Per your own statements, over the past 12 months I have seen very
little to no public support for it. As such, I am trying to find a simpler
solution that we can do now and then look at the more complicated solution
later. I fear if we try to do a more complicated solution now, then
TAXII 2.1 will still be many months away from being done.
>
> The proposal I have worked on with Drew and Gary is something we can
do very easily in a matter of days, which could enable us to finish TAXII
2.1 within the next month.
>
> But all of this is up to the TC to decide. We can see what kind
of feedback we get, and see where the majority of TC members sit. But at
this stage, I would personally (not as a chair or editor) prefer a more
simple solution that can be used now.
>
> Bret
>
>
>
> From: Jason Keirstead <Jason.Keirstead@ca.ibm.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2018 1:06:11 PM
> To: Bret Jordan
> Cc: cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: [EXT] Re: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
>
> Hi Brett - Terry and I have an alternative proposal we've been asking
the TC to have a look at here
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__docs.google.com_document_d_1Cy-5F9Bh5tKEkDHGg2iv5c3AwriqVr7ygbKXWOv4-2DuHxs_edit-23heading-3Dh.1jcqb6vc5y7z&d=DwIFaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=k6Q07xZDujljzkKqZUfupXFUDIHGIiq-Sl_u1bw0hyA&m=GxNVYTfZ0tdDiP0_-xzIfpPNyAZkQw5kRpJ9ptokX4w&s=F6PMqBjZ9UVOzlKty3f5R-ZSuZyoKM91lEUdIylTyGo&e=
>
> As we lay out in the document, there are a number of issues TAXII
has with query, and I think the proposal you have below is insufficient
to solve the use cases we have in Github:
>
> We first started working on this last Christmas - so it's been almost
an entire year. We've been struggling to get feedback on the document and
would like the TC to comment on it. It is in my opinion a very simple proposal
- yet it allows query to be extensible for many future use cases.
>
> We need to avoid endpoint pollution as one tries to bolt-on new endpoints
and arguments for every kind of query parameter under the sun without any
plan for the future use cases we have to meet.
>
> Issue 15 - As a User, I want to traverse the STIX
graph over TAXII in an efficient manner...
> Issue 7 - Need ability to request related objects in one request to
a distance of 1(?)
> Issue 5 - Add support to get embedded objects in a single request,
dereference...
> Issue 6 - Add ability to find all objects related to a particular
STIX object ID
> Issue 4 - TAXII Observed Data Query
>
> Also, I think "the biggest element holding people back"
is very much open to interpretation and what persona you fill. From the
perspective of most any SOAR-based security tool integrating with a TAXII
server, the biggest element holding me back is ability to find indicators
that match an observation, or find observation that match an indicator.
>
> Finding out who is related to a STIX object is very much a TIP-centric
use case (although I will add that that use case is also addressed in our
above proposal as well).
>
> My point is that we should not be trying to come out with a lot of
piecemeal-endpoints without thinking of the bigger picture of query.
>
> -
> Jason Keirstead
> Lead Architect - IBM Security Connect
> www.ibm.com/security
>
> "Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left
by those who hustle." - Unknown
>
>
>
>
> From: Bret Jordan <Bret_Jordan@symantec.com>
> To: "cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org"
<cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Date: 11/19/2018 03:26 PM
> Subject: [cti-taxii] TAXII Query / Search
> Sent by: <cti-taxii@lists.oasis-open.org>
>
>
>
>
>
> All,
>
> Over the past year I have heard from several people that they are
unable to implement TAXII because there is no way to search for relationships.
Yes, there are lots of other things that people would like to do with a
query request, but the ability to search for a relationship seems to be
the single biggest missing element holding people back from implementing
TAXII.
>
> I have talked with Drew and Gary about how we could solve this in
the very short term and would like to propose the following solution to
the TC. If the TC agrees with this, Drew and I can add this to Working
Draft 05 in the next week and submit Working Draft 05 to the TC for Review
and CSD ballot the first of December.
>
> Proposal
> 1) We create an endpoint called:
> <api-root>/collections/<id>/relationships/related-to/<stix-id>/
>
> This endpoint would return any SROs where the source_ref or target_ref
matched the supplied STIX ID. This would be a very simple database query,
and would not require a lot of computation work. This endpoint would
be mandatory to implement for all TAXII Servers as defined in the conformance
section.
>
>
> 2) We add an optional URL parameter for the relationships endpoint
called:
> ?deref=true
>
> This optional URL parameter would tell the server to automatically
send the objects that are referenced in the SROs that are being returned.
From a conformance standpoint, this URL parameter would be optional to
implement.
>
> If a client makes a request with that URL parameter and the server
has not implemented it, the server would respond with an HTTP 501 Not Implemented
error code and a TAXII error message that says the URL parameter is not
implemented.
>
> From a database performance standpoint, this URL parameter would require
that the server perform multiple database queries for each request and
would require the server to do some book keeping to ensure that it does
not send the same object multiple times. However, this feature would eliminate
the overhead of parsing multiple RESTful requests from the client as it
comes back and asks for each of the objects one at a time.
>
> Conclusion
> We have some support for doing this already as this would be easy
to implement in the specification and in code, and would solve a major
blocker that has been identified. I would be curious to know if anyone
else would support this or be against this. This does not mean that
we will not look at a more elaborate pattern based / property based query
solution in the future.
>
> Bret
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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