I take a slightly different perspective on this. I think we need to collaboratively identify a [small] set of options, iterate on them, and see what shakes out.
This will unblock prototyping activities and permit continued format evaluation to occur without making a decision to decide “right now”.
I think this approach could work for the CTI TC overall, and I think it could work for any discussion topic that has multiple points of view. Let’s get all the
perspectives out in the open and see the light of day.
Are there any drawbacks to identifying JSON (I’d like to prototype in JSON), plus any others that are raised, as the CTI TCs short list for formats? Of course
we need to be open to the list being fluid, but I hope we can settle on a small set. We just need to be comfortable – prototypers and non-prototypers – that prototypes are not binding on the CTI TC. They are just concept explorations that will help inform
the decision making process but will not drive it.
As a slight tangent, +1 to this:
> Lets have some discussion on how to address the needs for Demand side of the story too.
Thank you.
-Mark
From: cti@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:cti@lists.oasis-open.org]
On Behalf Of Wunder, John A.
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 11:33 AM
To: cti@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [cti] Thoughts on STIX and some of the other threads on this list
I noticed we somehow didn’t have an issue open in Github to decide on data format, so I added one. As Aharon and Sean said, we should try
to provide input on the issue trackers whenever possible so that we can easily go back to it once 2.0 development formally starts.
To Rich’s point I also added a set of down-to-earth questions that I think we would need to answer. If you think I missed any facets or discussion points comment and we can update the description, or just comment
with your opinions.
I think we need to be careful about making sweeping generalizations in these discussions. I’m seeing a lot of that of late and I think
that this sets a tone that discourages a full and open discussion. Bret has made his position on many things very clear. I think we need to make sure that other voices in the community are heard as well.
Rich
I agree 100%... Lets define a set of core values for this group that include things like simplicity and one-way-of-doing-things...
Just the act of moving to JSON will cause a lot of simplification to happen, we learned this when we moved TAXII from XML to JSON. Now JSON TAXII is so MUCH easier to understand and use.
Lets start today, let commit today, let move this group forward. Lets make it so easy for the community to adopt our standards that there is no reason for them not to.
Bret Jordan CISSP
Director of Security Architecture and Standards | Office of the CTO
PGP Fingerprint: 63B4 FC53 680A 6B7D 1447 F2C0 74F8 ACAE 7415 0050
"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."
What about having just python-stix/cybox serve as the reference implementation? I guess I just don’t see why we must have an equivalent
implementation for every mainstream language, especially if we make implementation easier by eliminating some of the existing ambiguities in complexities in the language.
On that note, while all of the talk around JSON is great (and I'm personally for it), it really needs to happen in tandem with reduction
in complexity/ambiguity, as otherwise we’re just pushing around the same flawed data structures but in a different serialization. Accordingly, if can come to an agreement that this (JSON/other serializations + simplification) is one of the CTI’s priorities
for the next release of STIX and CybOX, it would likely go a long way towards alleviating some of the broader community’s concerns around our efforts.
From: <cti@lists.oasis-open.org>
on behalf of "Bush, Jonathan"
Date: Monday, August 31, 2015 at 9:55 AM
To: 'Jason Keirstead'
Cc: Bret Jordan, Aharon Chernin, Mark Clancy, "cti@lists.oasis-open.org"
Subject: RE: [cti] Thoughts on STIX and some of the other threads on this list
Very fair point Jason – Do we have anyone like Mitre contracted who can maintain a set of libraries? That could be a heavy lift.
If we have that, I would suggest we work with them to build out the full functionality we need, not just skeleton libraries like we have
now.
If we don’t have that, I would go back to the thought that our scope should be limited to a conceptual model only. We have to make a choice
here, and it has big implications.
/ If we abstract out the complexity what we have to ‘learn’ is a set of API calls. This is how modern software is built – Not on data formats but on API formats. /
This sounds good in principle, but in order for this to work in practice the OASIS CTI would have to be responsible not just for the STIX standard, but also reference bindings and documentation for STIX in several mainstream languages, I would say Python, Java,
and C++ at a minimum. This would be a very large body of work to undertake and maintain... even the current reference Python bindings by MITRE are pretty bare-bones (they don't "make anything simple", it's really just a data binding - not really what is required
for a widely used reference library) and I don't think the Java ones were ever completed. If you don't have an easy to use library set for everyone to use, then the format of the data is very important.
I will give an example to the list from my own experience. I had to add some STIX support to a system in Python that was running Python 2.6, which I do not have any control over, and did not ship with a C++ compiler. As a result, the MITRE reference libraries
have a dependancy chain that ends up with something needing C++ linking to libraries to build - so I could not use them at all. I ended up having to write my own STIX parser in Python from the XML... which was quite eye-opening as to how convoluted STIX can
be to work with, and I had all of Python to help me. I can't even imagine the job of someone writing a STIX XML parser in C++ based on the 1.1 specification alone.
/ I honestly hate them all, even the XML format. /
Well I know few data formats I have any particular "love" for :) My main beef with the XML format has nothing to do with how it looks, it has to do with markup verboseness and efficiency on the wire.
-
Jason Keirstead
Product Architect, Security Intelligence, IBM Security Systems
www.ibm.com/security | www.securityintelligence.com
Without data, all you are is just another person with an opinion - Unknown
<image001.gif>"Bush, Jonathan" ---2015/08/28 09:06:30 PM---Bret - I think my point still remains - Why should I have to learn ANY specific implementation forma
From: "Bush, Jonathan" <jbush@dtcc.com>
To: "'Jordan, Bret'" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>,
Aharon Chernin <achernin@soltra.com>
Cc: Mark Clancy <mclancy@soltra.com>,
"cti@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti@lists.oasis-open.org>
Date: 2015/08/28 09:06 PM
Subject: RE: [cti] Thoughts on STIX and some of the other threads on this list
Sent by: <cti@lists.oasis-open.org>
Bret – I think my point still remains – Why should I have to learn ANY specific implementation format? I honestly hate them all, even the XML format.
If we abstract out the complexity what we have to ‘learn’ is a set of API calls. This is how modern software is built – Not on data formats but on API formats.
From:cti@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:cti@lists.oasis-open.org] On
Behalf Of Jordan, Bret
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 7:38 PM
To: Aharon Chernin
Cc: Mark Clancy; cti@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [cti] Thoughts on STIX and some of the other threads on this list
Consumers use tools, hopefully they never see the format. Vendors, web developers, app developers, and open source developers write the tools. They are the ones that have to pay the XML tax.
Given the progress that Facebook is making I can begin to see a need for vendors even Soltra Edge to start supporting their threat exchange format.
My question still stands.. Will anyone not use STIX if we stopped doing XML? Follow on, how many more vendors and developers will we gain if we adopted JSON?
Let's just use Intelworks' JSON STIX format and be done with it.
Bret
Sent from my Commodore 64
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