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Subject: Re: [cti] Thoughts on STIX and some of the other threads on this list
Hi All,
I wanted to take the opportunity and underline some of the things in Aharon’s email and add some of my own that I feel should be among our priorities. Additionally, provide my 0.02$ on why we “implement” in JSON.
Adding:
On the topic of JSON. We and many others I suspect, implement JSON simply because it does not require (much of) additional middle-ware to integrate into persistence layers. Its a short-cut enabled by today’s popular technologies. This is very different
then my ability to create APIs that “understand” STIX and its many complexities and processes (like versioning and revocation). Although JSON will make it easier, my assessment is that it is marginal. If we want to foster adoption (lesser fortunate/funded,
simply lazy/stubborn or otherwise constraint organization) we either have to support vendors freely making available this middle-ware or consider addressing this directly in the standard itself.
All the best,
Joep
From: Aharon Chernin <achernin@soltra.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 1:41 AM To: "Barnum, Sean D." <sbarnum@mitre.org>, "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>, Mark Clancy <mclancy@soltra.com> Cc: "cti@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti@lists.oasis-open.org> Subject: Re: [cti] Thoughts on STIX and some of the other threads on this list This reply is not in reply to Sean. He just happened to be the last post in the thread By the way, for the group, what I think we are discussing is the default binding approach for the spec. STIX/TAXII/CybOx can be done in multiple formats. But, what is the format we prefer as default?
I am not a fan of XML and I would encourage open debate on alternatives for the next major release. However, I am concerned that people are arguing for format change without actually fixing the complexities that made XML hard in the first place.
Let's talk about things that JSON wont fix: 1) Complex logical operations 2) Heavily nested objects 3) Object Versioning 4) Relationships that go 50 levels deep backwards and forwards. 5) Making it easy just to share a single evil URL with someone. Reduce verbosity ? 6) XPATH in the Marking Structure. Or the marking object in general. 7) Multiple ways to say the same thing 8) Almost every field being optional
All of these complexities are built into the language, they are not built into the XML or JSON format.
So, how do we focus on the consumer instead? 1) Design a STIX/TAXII ecosystem that doesn't bifurcate itself (ie. use a default binding) 2) Fix the 8 things above 3) Market our products in a way where we teach the value of STIX/TAXII and interoperability to our consumers 4) Build consumer demand for interoperability 5) Stop complaining about format and start building products that talk to each other to fulfill consumers demand for interoperability 5.5) Hide the complexities of the STIX/TAXII to the non-developer consumer 6) Make it "easier" for the super savvy developer consumer to make content (IE: fix the things in the 1-8 bullets above).
Aharon Chernin
CTO SOLTRA
| An FS-ISAC & DTCC Company
18301 Bermuda green Dr
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achernin@soltra.com
From:
cti@lists.oasis-open.org <cti@lists.oasis-open.org> on behalf of Barnum, Sean D. <sbarnum@mitre.org>
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 6:16 PM To: Jordan, Bret; Mark Clancy Cc: cti@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [cti] Thoughts on STIX and some of the other threads on this list I would like to once again strongly and hopefully politely make a request.
Can we please stop promulgating and spending cycles on this False Dilemma?
How to represent STIX information in the implementation of an information exchange or a repository or an analytic system is NOT an either-or decision.
Since the beginning of the STIX community it has NOT been an either-or decision.
When STIX began, when things were very nascent and we knew we didn’t know what we didn’t know, we as a community decided to use XML Schema to capture and think through ideas because it was widely understood by everyone, gave us an explicit mechanism for
defining and validating structure and syntax, and it had a broad ecosystem of tooling available for it. This was in no way a declaration that STIX was only XML or ever would be. To the contrary, it was discussed that we would use it to figure out what we needed
to and to test out ideas with real content and once we felt we had reached an appropriate level of maturity and stability that we would abstract out our consensus on structure and semantics to a non-implementation-dependent form and define different implementations
against it as appropriate. It was always said that we would likely maintain the XSD implementation as a reference implementation since the work was already done and that there would be a body of implementations already in place using it. However, we also very
clearly agreed that other implementations would/could be created as appropriate for particular use cases and technical contexts that required different implementation formats. JSON was explicitly identified as a likely option as were things like protobuf,
OWL/RDF, etc. This has always been the plan and is still the plan. It is fundamental to how the charter for the CTI TC was set up and is now only a week or two away from that long-ago envisioned milestone where other implementations like JSON could effectively
be defined in such a way that we could have some confidence that they would lead to technology implementations that are actually conformant to the same language standard structure and semantics as any other implementation.
It would be inappropriate to assert that XML is the one and only way that STIX should be represented (such an assertion has NEVER been made by the STIX community or the DHS/MITRE teams supporting it).
It would be equally inappropriate to assert that JSON is the one and only way that STIX should be represented.
The reality is that different data representation formats exist for a reason. It is not simply that each group decided to "roll their own” rather than reuse what others had developed for their use cases. Such unnecessary redundancy may exist in some cases
but for the most part different data representation formats exist because different technical contexts and use cases have different requirements for things like size, speed, rigor, expressivity, flexibility, technical dependencies, etc. And different data
representation formats have different advantages and disadvantages related to these sorts of requirements.
There does not exist any single data representation format that is the “right” answer or even an adequate answer for all technical contexts and use cases. Different situations call for different data representation formats.
Trying to force such a single option, while making natural supporters of that option happy, would almost certainly drive a good portion of potential adopters away from the table and for many of those who chose to stay at the table and compromise would
deliver a reduced capability to whatever format may be appropriate to them. That reduced capability then gets passed on to the users.
Recognizing that no single data representation format (syntax and lexicality) is “right” for every context does not mean that we cannot have a single agreed to set of structure and semantics for the domain of information being represented. That is exactly
what STIX is intended to be, a single standardized language specifying agreed to structure and semantics for cyber threat information supporting a broad range of technical contexts and use cases. Since the beginning of STIX a foundational principle of STIX
has been that STIX is NOT a system or a repository or a sharing program but rather IS a language specifying structure and semantics for cyber threat information that can support any number of systems or repositories or sharing programs implemented by any number
of organizations using whatever technologies are appropriate for them. This objective does not require a limitation to one and only one data representation format, and in it fact precludes such a limitation.
So, you are correct Bret in saying that “format impacts adoption”. If people feel that they have no option to leverage the format that is most appropriate for their situation then they are less likely to adopt.
You make a first argument that this is the situation that exists today with people who want to use JSON and I certainly agree with you that there are many people who say that they only want to do STIX in JSON.
You then make a second argument that JSON is the only “right” solution and that nobody wants XML and we should remove support for it.
Unfortunately, the factual statements in the first two sentences of this paragraph that support argument #1 completely invalidate argument #2.
We cannot twist logic to support a preferred option.
I am not sure what I can say about your assertion that nobody uses or cares about XML other than that it is very inaccurate.
While there are many players that support and desire JSON, there are also those who support and desire (or may even be required to use due to regulatory or policy issues) XML. It is in no way a unanimous opinion either way.
And that is only looking at two options. For use cases requiring low latency and high speed, neither JSON nor textual XML are really adequate. For situations like those, options like capn-proto, protobuf, thrift, EXI, etc. are far more appropriate.
For anyone who might read my statements above and interpret me as an XML fan-boy, please know that nothing could be further from the truth. If I were to go write a system today using STIX information, I would choose the appropriate data representation
format based on the needs and context of that system. It is very possible that I would choose JSON or some other format based on their advantages and disadvantages. We initially used XSD to model STIX early on as it provided the appropriate advantages to support
the sort of exploration we needed to do as a community at that time. That does not mean that it is the best option for someone creating any particular product today. It may be but it may not be.
One option that has been discussed to address both the need to support a variety of potential data representation format options and the desire to coalesce toward a single option is to select and specify a Mandatory To Implement (MTI) data representation
format within the Conformance section of the STIX language specifications. This would mean that any implementation claiming to be conformant with the STIX language must at least support the MTI data representation format but could also support other additional
formats as appropriate to its context. This would enable a minimum bar of interoperability at the format level between implementations but would not prevent people from doing what they need to do other than the MTI. I respectfully suggest that discussion around
forming a separate working group to focus on selecting which format should be used for STIX be recentered around investigating and selecting an MTI format rather than an “only” format.
Net-net:
I truly hope we can stop spending cycles arguing this
False Dilemma and as Mark and Pat suggest focus on the fundamental structure and semantic issues that will make STIX more effective at supporting cyber threat information use cases and the users that use them. ;-)
Sorry for the length of this message. I started out attempting brevity but found that some factual explanation was required rather than just making brief statements of hyperbole.
Thanks for spending the time to consider this. I wish I had an Easter egg to hide down here for your effort. :-)
Sean
From: <cti@lists.oasis-open.org> on behalf of "Jordan, Bret" <bret.jordan@bluecoat.com>
Date: Friday, August 28, 2015 at 6:22 PM To: Mark Clancy <mclancy@soltra.com> Cc: "cti@lists.oasis-open.org" <cti@lists.oasis-open.org> Subject: Re: [cti] Thoughts on STIX and some of the other threads on this list Format impacts adoption, plain and simple. Why do you think Facebook went off and did their solution in JSON? Why does Soltra do JSON on the back end? Why does Intelworks do JSON? Why are other threat intel solutions
doing JSON? Why are other yet to be released solutions similar to Soltra Edge that have not yet been announced also doing JSON?
As I have said before, all of the code that has been written and that will be written by this group, in the end, will account for probably only 5% of the total code that needs to be written. If those web developers, app developers, and open source
developers that are going to write the other 95% hate the format, and refuse to work with it, then they will not write code for it. The Python libraries only go so far. We need libraries in C, C++, Objective-C, SWIFT, PHP, Ruby, Andoriod-Java, C#, etc etc
etc..
Everyone that does not think this is an issue, please write some C code using existing STIX in XML.. Then lets talk....
Let me copy in some of my thoughts from another thread and down grade my own TLP as well.
Most vendors I talk too, ones that we would want to be on board with STIX and TAXII, always complain about XML. I did not start this effort with a bias against XML, as I too was an academic. But everything I hear, and ever vendor I talk to says
the same thing.... So we should just do it and be done with it.
The religious debate is one-sides for sure. Meaning, people will avoid using STIX because of XML. But I doubt anyone at the end of the day would care if we stopped using XML. There is no one out there that is pushing for XML and
will refuse to use STIX if it is NOT in XML.
Lets solve this problem and be done with it.
Thanks,
Bret
Bret Jordan CISSP
Director of Security Architecture and Standards | Office of the CTO
Blue Coat Systems
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"Without cryptography vihv vivc ce xhrnrw, however, the only thing that can not be unscrambled is an egg."
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