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Subject: RE: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice?
- From: john_hunt@us.ibm.com
- To: <amber@ditastrategies.com>
- Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2013 10:49:01 -0400
Hi all -
I'd be happy to convene an L&T meeting
on these topics. I'll also cc: Robert Anderson, to get his input on how
some of this might coordinate with updates to the DITA Open Toolkit.
How is Thursday, Sep 26 at 10 or 10:30
am US ET?
John
___________________________________
John Hunt
Senior Technical Content Architect
IBM Collaboration Solutions | User Experience: Design and Information Excellence
4502 S. Miami Blvd, Durham, NC 27703
john_hunt@us.ibm.com | 919-254-2879
From:
"Amber Swope"
<amber@ditastrategies.com>
To:
"'Myers, Mark'"
<mark.myers@sap.com>, <john_hunt@us.ibm.com>, "'Eliot
Kimber'" <ekimber@rsicms.com>
Cc:
<dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org>,
"'Gemmell, Jennifer'" <jennifer.gemmell@sap.com>
Date:
09/02/2013 01:09 PM
Subject:
RE: [dita-learningspec]
RE: Whither learningPractice?
Sent by:
<dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org>
Thanks for the reply, Mark.
I’ve had more than one person
inquire about SCORM support, so it’s on my radar, too.
John,
What do you think the next
step should be? Is it appropriate to use the existing L&T subcommittee
for this additional work? If so, can you please schedule an L&T meeting
for later in September for us to consider post-1.3 work? I need the next
couple of weeks to complete my 1.3 commitments.
Thanks, Amber
From: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org
[mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org]
On Behalf Of Myers, Mark
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 12:56 PM
To: amber@ditastrategies.com; john_hunt@us.ibm.com; 'Eliot Kimber'
Cc: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org; Gemmell, Jennifer
Subject: RE: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice?
Hi Amber,
I’m definitely interested
and have the same views as you expressed.
In SAP, we are using DITA
1.2 extensively to create our training and education content. From a data
modeling perspective, we found DITA 1.2 Learning and Training spec to cover
almost all our requirements.
However, we did need to do
extensive pipeline and style sheet development in order to produce the
formal types of outputs you mention below including course outlines, SCORM
e-learning courses for running on an LMS, instructor presentations, instructor
and participant handbooks, and so on. In my opinion, it would be very beneficial
for the adoption of DITA L&T to have an open source implementation
to generate these types of outputs. This would make the adoption
of DITA for learning and education much easier.
Jenn Gemmell and I presented
a summary of our use of DITA 1.2 for education in our DITA NA conference
presentation. She’s an instructional designer and has extensive hands-on
experience in using DITA 1.2 for the development of learning content so
I would like to involve her as well. We would be happy to discuss
this topic in further detail.
Regards,
Mark
Mark Myers
Knowledge Transfer Architect, Production Platform Management and Operations
Knowledge Productization Services
SAP America, Inc.
3999 West Chester Pike
Newtown Square, PA 19073 USA
T 1-610-661-5823
F 1-610-661-5824
M 1-484-802-1809
From: Amber Swope [mailto:amber@ditastrategies.com]
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 3:07 PM
To: john_hunt@us.ibm.com;
'Eliot Kimber'
Cc: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org;
Myers, Mark
Subject: RE: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice?
Hi there,
I know that we’re still
wrapping up our DITA 1.3 work, but wanted to restart the conversation about
what is next for the L&T support. In various meetings, there has been
the suggestion that we start a separate effort for formal education support.
I have multiple clients using the DITA L&T support and they fall into
the following broadly defined categories:
·
knowledge transfer
o goal:
present information to pass knowledge
o learning
objective usage: no formal learning objective assessment requirements
o delivery:
information is presented with instructor-led session (in-person or remotely
via Internet)
o deliverables:
slides
·
training
o goal:
train folks to perform certain tasks that correspond to specific learning
objectives
o learning
objective usage: no formal assessment
o delivery:
information is presented with instructor-led session (in-person or remotely
via Internet) or via downloadable webinars
o deliverables:
slides; maybe some student materials and/or instructor guide; exercises
·
education
o goal:
teach students formal curriculum that corresponds to specific learning
objectives
o learning
objective usage: formal assessment with grading requirements
o delivery:
information is presented in many ways, including instructor-led session
(in-person or remotely via Internet) using slides, via downloadable webinars,
via LMS, …
o deliverables:
slides, LMS content, syllabus, student materials, instructor guide, tests,
practice tests, course descriptions, compliance documents, question banks
Do other folks have a similar
understanding of this space? If not, how is your experience different?
My experience is that with
the DITA 1.3 updates, we can meet the majority of the needs for the first
two groups, but the education folks need more formal support. Is anyone
else interested in working on this more formal support? If so, how is the
best way to do this?
Thanks, A
Amber Swope
dita specialist
<dita strategies>
503.922.3038
amber@ditastrategies.com
From: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org
[mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org]
On Behalf Of john_hunt@us.ibm.com
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:52 AM
To: Eliot Kimber
Cc: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org;
Myers, Mark
Subject: Re: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice?
Hi Eliot, Mark, all -
Thanks, Eliot, for digging out that 2005 paper, which did inform a good
part of the initial OASIS discussions about the L&T specialization.
We had quite a bit of discussion in the sub-committee about additional
topic types for practice, exercises, labs, and so forth. In good part because
there were quite a few variants of this kind of content, we ultimately
resolved that for the general spec, we'd include just the single learningContent
type, intended as a general vehicle for all types of learning content.
That said, I'd say that learningContent is intended also as a vehicle
for further specialization, as might be needed for specific purposes, such
as the one you bring up for learningPractice.
But your reply also brings up the issue of what base type to specialization
from. For learningContent, we chose "topic" to make it as generic
as possible, since learning content might be task, concept, or reference,
not just task. And of course, this poses a dilemma for learningPractice,
which quite frankly we did not resolve in those earlier discussions about
the learningContent type. If you want a learningPractice topic that specializes
from task, you would not be able to specialize from learningContent. You'd
need to specialization a new branch off of task.
The other angle here is that we enabled learningContent to include nested
topics of other types, including task, concept, and reference. This enables
you to create a learning content topic with an intro and learning objectives
and other learning-specific elements, and then deliver the content itself
as a task or concept, but in the context of those learning objectives.
It looks like this is the approach SAP has taken in their solution.
Perhaps this is a topic to revisit post-1.3.
John
___________________________________
John Hunt, Chair OASIS DITA Learning and Training sub-committee
Senior Technical Content Architect
IBM Collaboration Solutions | User Experience: Design and Information Excellence
4205 S. Miami Blvd, Durham, NC 27703
john_hunt@us.ibm.com
From: Eliot
Kimber <ekimber@rsicms.com>
To: "Myers,
Mark" <mark.myers@sap.com>,
"dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org"
<dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org>
Date: 06/10/2013
10:10 AM
Subject: Re:
[dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice?
Sent by: <dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org>
I was actually looking for the topicref, not necessarily a topic type,
although I kind of expected the topic type.
I think it makes sense to use task as a base. If memory serves now that
I
think about it, one of my arguments for relaxing the task model in 1.2
was
to enable construction of exercises that were not formal lists of steps,
but
just a description of what to do.
I think I would still want to specialize from task to make an exercise
topic
and be able to do things like name the substeps "exerciseSolution"
or
similar.
Cheers,
E.
On 6/10/13 9:36 AM, "Myers, Mark" <mark.myers@sap.com>
wrote:
> Hi Eliot,
>
> I can't speak about the learningPractice, that discussion predates
my
> involvement with the SC.
>
> I can offer a recommendation though based on SAP's approach. We also
need to
> create exercises and solutions in our training content. We use the
task
> element. We specialized it as "Exercise" but otherwise it
is just like task.
>
> We have authors write the tasks using the steps element to contain
general
> instructions and the substeps element to contain the detailed step-by-step
> actions a user would take to complete the general instructions.
>
> So for example, general instruction go here:
>
> /learningContent/task/taskbody/steps/step
>
> The detailed action a user needs to do to complete that instruction
go beneath
> the step in a substeps element like this:
>
> /learningContent/task/taskbody/steps/step/substeps/substep
>
> When we publish our handbooks, we publish each task twice: first labeled
as an
> "exercise" which includes the steps and omits the substeps,
the again labeled
> as a "solution" which include both the steps and substeps.
>
> I attached a screen shot from our instructor handbook as an example.
>
> We also follow this approach for learning assessments, we publish
once with no
> answers indicated and then again with the answers indicated.
>
> If you want to see the sources or other examples just let me know.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
>
> Mark Myers
> Knowledge Transfer Architect, Production Platform Management and Operations
> Knowledge Productization Services
> SAP America, Inc.
> 3999 West Chester Pike
> Newtown Square, PA 19073 USA
> T 1-610-661-5823
> F 1-610-661-5824
> M 1-484-802-1809
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org
> [mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org]
On Behalf Of Eliot Kimber
> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 3:18 PM
> To: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: [dita-learningspec] Whither learningPractice?
>
> I notice that John Hunt and Robert Bernard's 2005 paper
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-dita9a/
includes a
> "learningPractice" topic type (or, more generally, major
section of a
> course, parallel with learningOverview, learningSummary, etc.)
>
> However, we don't have a learningPractice topic type or map type in
the 1.2
> L&T specialization.
>
> Was that a deliberate decision or does the 2005 paper reflect later
thinking
> after the 1.2 L&T design was finalized?
>
> I'm looking for how to organize "exercises" for an instructor-led
course and
> learningPractice is just the thing.
>
> Of course, I can create my own specializations but I was curious as
to why
> there's no obvious accommodation for exercises in the 1.2 L&T
design.
>
> Cheers,
>
> E.
>
> --
> Eliot Kimber
> Senior Solutions Architect, RSI Content Solutions
> "Bringing Strategy, Content, and Technology Together"
> Main: 512.554.9368
> www.rsicms.com
> www.rsuitecms.com
> Book: DITA For Practitioners, from XML Press,
> http://xmlpress.net/publications/dita/practitioners-1/
>
>
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--
Eliot Kimber
Senior Solutions Architect, RSI Content Solutions
"Bringing Strategy, Content, and Technology Together"
Main: 512.554.9368
www.rsicms.com
www.rsuitecms.com
Book: DITA For Practitioners, from XML Press,
http://xmlpress.net/publications/dita/practitioners-1/
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