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Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028 How to share Excel file


OK, thanks Mary.   

In summary, it seems that it's OK to have meetings outside the "regular
scheduled program", as long as:

    - The meeting is announced through the official SC channels 
      (calendar or email list).

    - The meeting is open to all SC members.

    - Screen-sharing collaboration tools (such as LiveMeeting, 
      NetMeeting, WebEx) can be used, but since documents may 
      not be hosted on non-OASIS systems, hosted systems such 
      as Google Documents and non-OASIS wikis cannot be used.

    - A summary of what transpired must be posted in the documents 
      or email list.

    - All deliverables created must be posted to the official 
      SC site (email list, Wiki, or document repository).


I think that's workable.   


Thanks again for all the clarifications!  (and let me know if this final
summary of mine is wrong!)


Seraphim Larsen
Intel Corporation * ECG TechComm
Chandler, AZ * (480) 552-6504
My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel. 



-----Original Message-----
From: Mary McRae [mailto:marypmcrae@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mary McRae
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 10:01 AM
To: Larsen, Seraphim L; 'Don Day'
Cc: 'Beims Bob-RWBC70'; dita-sidsc@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028 How to
share Excel file

I think your use case is fine - everyone in the TC knows it will be
happening and they all have a chance to participate. Anyone who is a
member
of the TC should be able to create a calendar entry. I think a bit more
than
10 minutes notice would be good - presumably Duane and Jeremy know a bit
further in advance when they've scheduled to talk. During the conference
call you might want to ask if there's anyone else interested in
participating so schedules can be coordinated and no one that wants to
participate is left out.

Using the calendar isn't required, but it does provide another audit
point
of when the conversation is taking/took place along with conference #s,
etc.

And obviously what isn't allowed is for Jeremy and Duane to invite four
of
their friends who are not members of the TC to join them in this task.

Regards,

Mary


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larsen, Seraphim L [mailto:seraphim.l.larsen@intel.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:25 PM
> To: mary.mcrae@oasis-open.org; Don Day
> Cc: Beims Bob-RWBC70; dita-sidsc@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028 How to
> share Excel file
> 
> If I understand correctly, Jeremy and Duane can't just call each other
> up and discuss the spreadsheet?   They need to set up a conference
call
> that's open to all members, even if we all know ahead of time (since
we
> discussed it in the SC meeting) that it will only be the two of them
> attending?
> 
> Can Duane (for example) just send a quick email to the SIDSC list,
like
> this:
> 
>     As was decided at the SC meeting 9/26/07, Jeremy and Duane
>     will be meeting in 10 minutes to discuss the spreadsheet
>     and make changes to it.   We will be using LiveMeeting (or
>     whatever) to view the spreadsheet -- http://xxx.xxx.xxx
> 
>     If you want to attend, let Duane know by posting to the list,
>     or you can call Duane during the meeting at 212-555-1234 and he
>     will conference you in.
> 
>     We will summarize the changes and post the final Excel file
>     to the SC repository on OASIS.
> 
> 
> Or, do they need to schedule something on the SC calendar, and set up
a
> real conference call into which any member can call?
> 
> If the latter choice is the only option, it seems like unnecessary
> overhead, since the SC is already aware of their planned meeting and
> has
> already approved it.   Also, can any member set up a meeting in the
> calendar?   Or does an officer need to do that?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Seraphim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mary McRae [mailto:marypmcrae@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mary McRae
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 8:46 AM
> To: Larsen, Seraphim L; 'Don Day'
> Cc: 'Beims Bob-RWBC70'; dita-sidsc@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028 How to
> share Excel file
> 
> Hi Seraphim,
> 
>   No, "offline" collaboration isn't allowed. However, posting to the
> list
> that there's going to be a conference call (not a webinar - there's no
> requirement to use a webinar for a meeting or to record the audio of
> the
> meeting) to discuss updating/integrating the spreadsheet, all those
> interested attend and decide on the changes (and note them in the
> minutes),
> and then some one or both edit the document and upload into Kavi, and
> then a
> message is sent to the TC list indicating that a new version has been
> uploaded for everyone to review and provide comments on (via the TC
> email
> list) and then at the next meeting the SC either agrees with it or
> suggests
> further revisions, etc. Or it could be done without having a
> teleconference
> and just communicating on the email list.
> 
>   Does that make sense?
> 
> Mary
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Larsen, Seraphim L [mailto:seraphim.l.larsen@intel.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:25 AM
> > To: mary.mcrae@oasis-open.org; Don Day
> > Cc: Beims Bob-RWBC70
> > Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028 How
to
> > share Excel file
> >
> > Hi Mary,
> >
> > (This thread has been off-list.   Maybe we should bring it back on-
> > list.
> > If you agree, please CC <dita-sidsc@lists.oasis-open.org> in your
> > reply.)
> >
> > The last two paragraphs of this last email seem to undermine
> everything
> > else that has been said...  Especially this:
> >
> >     Also, since subcommittees can't take official action there is no
> >     quorum requirement; a meeting of two could be held as long as
all
> >     decisions/changes/etc. are noted in an email to the list and the
> >     group can then review and recommend changes.
> >
> > It sounds like you are saying the following scenario is acceptable:
> >
> >     - Two members do some off-line collaboration
> >     - They use whatever tools they want
> >     - They post all results to the SIDSC email list:
> >         - The post includes "minutes" -- who was there, what they
did
> >         - They attach the final Excel file or other deliverables, or
> >           post them to the OASIS repository and link to them
> >
> >
> > On the other hand, in the earlier paragraphs, it sounds like it's
not
> > even allowed for people to have offline telephone discussions --
> > everything must be public and recorded.
> >
> > I am feeling pretty confused...   Please clarify...   :-)
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Seraphim
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mary McRae [mailto:marypmcrae@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mary
> McRae
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:06 PM
> > To: Larsen, Seraphim L; 'Don Day'
> > Cc: 'Beims Bob-RWBC70'
> > Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028 How
to
> > share Excel file
> >
> > Hi Seraphim,
> >
> >   I don't think Google spreadsheets will actually make it any easier
> -
> > I
> > do
> > see a couple of alternatives though.
> >
> > 1. Duane downloads the document and makes his changes. Uploads it
> back
> > into
> > the repository (yes, Kavi is the name of the OASIS groupware app)
> > 2. Duane lets Jeremy know it's ready for him to edit.
> > 3. Jeremy downloads the document and makes his changes. Uploads it
> back
> > into
> > the repository.
> > 4. Jeremy lets Duane know that it's ready for him to review.
> >
> > This is, in effect, the same as conducting work on the TC list -
> > basically
> > the two of them are having a conversation in public view; if anyone
> > else
> > wants to jump in and comment they're free to do so.
> >
> > Alternatively, they could both download a copy of the spreadsheet
and
> > have a
> > discussion in the email list:
> > 1. Duane suggests modifying line 5, deleting line 7 and switching
> lines
> > 37
> > and 42.
> > 2. Jeremy agrees with the line 5 changes, but thinks instead of
> > deleting
> > line 7 it should be modified and 37 and 42 should stay as they are.
> > 3. Others chime in to reach consensus.
> > 4. One agrees to "take the pen" and makes the agreed-upon changes
> (like
> > any
> > editor working on a spec)
> >
> > This allows for asynchronous collaboration - no need for everyone to
> be
> > online at the same time, but everyone is aware of the conversation
> and
> > it's
> > tracked in the email archives.
> >
> > Another alternative is to create a subcommittee - although since
this
> > *is* a
> > subcommittee it would be a bit odd ;-) We could create
> > dita-sidsc-editors
> > and those people interested in working on the spreadsheet could do
> just
> > that. Since it's such a small group that doesn't quite seem
> necessary,
> > but
> > it's always an alternative. Also, since subcommittees can't take
> > official
> > action there is no quorum requirement; a meeting of two could be
held
> > as
> > long as all decisions/changes/etc. are noted in an email to the list
> > and
> > the
> > group can then review and recommend changes.
> >
> > Also remember that this *is* a subcommittee, and can't really do
> > anything
> > official other than recommend to the larger committee. So any work
> done
> > by
> > the subcommittee, once agreed upon, is then turned over to Don and
> > submitted
> > to the main TC for presentation and approval.
> >
> > Does that help?
> >
> > Mary
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Larsen, Seraphim L [mailto:seraphim.l.larsen@intel.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 9:49 PM
> > > To: mary.mcrae@oasis-open.org; Don Day
> > > Cc: Beims Bob-RWBC70
> > > Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028 How
> to
> > > share Excel file
> > >
> > > What is "Kavi"?  Is that the main document repository for the TC?
> > >
> > > Here is what we're trying to do.  Some members contributed text,
> > Excel
> > > files, and similar material through the SIDSC email list, or
> through
> > > the
> > > Wiki.   Bob then took all that and compiled it into one place on
> the
> > > Wiki.   From there, he copied it all to an Excel spreadsheet.
> > >
> > > Then, in our SIDSC meeting today, we used LiveMeeting to
> collaborate
> > on
> > > the Excel spreadsheet -- all of us watching as Bob made changes to
> > the
> > > file.   The fact that we did this was recorded in the minutes, and
> > Bob
> > > will be uploading the file to the document repository on the SIDSC
> > site
> > > on OASIS.
> > >
> > > A lot of the changes involved matching up the contributions from
> PTC
> > > and
> > > IBM.  It seemed like it would be more efficient to have them work
> > > offline to fix up the document.  So, Jeremy (from PTC) and Duane
> > (from
> > > IBM) were trying to find some way to collaborate on that.
Someone
> > > suggested using Google Spreadsheets.
> > >
> > > Ultimately, the document will end up back in the document
> repository.
> > > But we didn't know exactly what they are allowed to do outside the
> > > context of the formal TC meeting.
> > >
> > >
> > > If Duane (for example) "checks out" the file from the document
> > > repository, and opens it up on his PC, and then does a LiveMeeting
> or
> > > NetMeeting or something with Jeremy, and they make changes to the
> > file,
> > > and then Duane checks the file back in, is this acceptable?
> > >
> > > A few questions arise at this point.  On one hand, I see the
> > potential
> > > issues involved with this kind of thing, if (for example) they
have
> > > some
> > > kind of misunderstanding about what kind of content should be
> > > contributed, and Duane ends up checking in some of Jeremy's
content
> > > that
> > > Jeremy didn't want to check in.  But on the other hand, how would
> > > anyone
> > > even know that they had this offline collaborative meeting, if
they
> > > didn't tell anybody?
> > >
> > >
> > > Sorry again for being so persnickety about all this -- I just want
> to
> > > make sure we aren't getting into trouble again.  :-)
> > >
> > >
> > > Seraphim Larsen
> > > Intel Corporation * ECG TechComm
> > > Chandler, AZ * (480) 552-6504
> > > My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mary McRae [mailto:marypmcrae@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mary
> > McRae
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:43 PM
> > > To: Larsen, Seraphim L; 'Don Day'
> > > Cc: 'Beims Bob-RWBC70'
> > > Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028 How
> to
> > > share Excel file
> > >
> > > Hi Seraphim,
> > >
> > >   You bring up a good point - right now the wiki is the only
> > > "collaborative"
> > > tool available. Of course anyone can upload a document into Kavi,
> > > someone
> > > else can check it out and edit it with change tracking, upload it
> and
> > > let
> > > the next person have their turn - but it's a much more linear
flow.
> I
> > > also
> > > think the change tracking facility in Excel is lacking compared to
> > > Word;
> > > not
> > > sure about OpenOffice or Lotus Symphony.
> > >
> > >   There's lots of work currently at OASIS that started elsewhere -
> it
> > > could
> > > have been a contribution from a single company, such as when IBM
> > > contributed
> > > DITA, or it could have been collaborative work done prior to
> > formation
> > > of an
> > > OASIS Technical Committee - such as the work of the WSFED TC, or
> that
> > > of
> > > the
> > > CSA-affiliated TCs. In those cases the work was created by many
> > > companies.
> > > When the TCs are formed, each participating member must contribute
> > the
> > > work
> > > to OASIS thereby taking care of any IPR concerns. If you look at
> the
> > > early
> > > email archives for the WS-FED TC, for instance, you'll see the
same
> > > document
> > > being contributed by a half-dozen or more individuals. Same goes
> for
> > > each of
> > > the six SCA-* TCs.
> > >
> > >   However in those cases the work was done prior to the formation
> of
> > > the
> > > technical committee; now that the technical committee is in
> existence
> > > all
> > > work must be done in the open, publicly accessible, and under
OASIS
> > > rules.
> > >
> > >   I'd like to better understand exactly what the members are
trying
> > to
> > > accomplish so I can either make alternative recommendations or add
> to
> > > our
> > > internal development plans. Something else to watch for is an
> > > anticipated
> > > upcoming announcement regarding Acrobat Connect (formerly
> Macromedia
> > > Breeze). I'm doing some final testing but this allows people to
not
> > > only
> > > share desktops and view presentations but also has a whiteboard
> > > facility.
> > > You can read more at: http://www.adobe.com/resources/breeze/
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Mary
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Larsen, Seraphim L [mailto:seraphim.l.larsen@intel.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 7:48 PM
> > > > To: Don Day; mary.mcrae@oasis-open.org
> > > > Cc: Beims Bob-RWBC70
> > > > Subject: FW: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028
> How
> > to
> > > > share Excel file
> > > >
> > > > Mary/Don, please clarify if I've stated any of this incorrectly.
> > > >
> > > > Also -- What are other groups doing to deal with this issue?
> How
> > > can
> > > > OASIS members from different OASIS member companies collaborate
> > > > "off-line" in order to create and post a contribution to the
> OASIS
> > > TC?
> > > > Or is this simply not allowed?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Seraphim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Larsen, Seraphim L
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:47 PM
> > > > To: dita-sidsc@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028
> How
> > to
> > > > share Excel file
> > > >
> > > > I know it's a pain, but no, we can't use Google Spreadsheets.  I
> > > > brought
> > > > up the idea myself a couple months ago, but it was shot down by
> the
> > > > following OASIS policy:
> > > >
> > > >         http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/process.php#s2.8
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Here's a quote:
> > > >
> > > >         The official copies of all resources of the TC and its
> > > > associated
> > > >         subcommittees, including web pages, documents, email
> lists
> > > and
> > > > any
> > > >         other records of discussions, must be located only on
> > > > facilities
> > > >
> > > >         designated by OASIS. TCs and SCs may not conduct
official
> > > > business
> > > >         or technical discussions, store documents, or host web
> > pages
> > > on
> > > >         servers or systems not designated by OASIS. All web
> pages,
> > > >         documents, ballot results and email archives of all TCs
> and
> > > SCs
> > > >         shall be publicly visible.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > One of the reasons for this are intellectual property and non-
> > > > disclosure
> > > > considerations.
> > > >
> > > > For example, if Bob and Seth (both at Freescale) get together
and
> > > work
> > > > on a spreadsheet and then submit that to the OASIS document
> > > repository,
> > > > that seems like it would be OK.  There are no multi-party
> > > intellectual
> > > > property considerations, since they both work at Freescale.
> > > >
> > > > But if Duane and Jeremy (at IBM and PDT, respectively) get
> together
> > > and
> > > > work on a spreadsheet, and then one of them posts it to OASIS,
> this
> > > > action may have multi-party IP disclosure implications.  Maybe
> one
> > of
> > > > them could think the work is only between IBM and PDT, covered
> > under
> > > > NDAs between those two companies, and didn't intend for it to be
> > > posted
> > > > to OASIS.
> > > >
> > > > I will ask Mary McRae and Don Day for their input -- it seems
> there
> > > > must
> > > > be a way to deal with this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Seraphim Larsen
> > > > Intel Corporation * ECG TechComm
> > > > Chandler, AZ * (480) 552-6504
> > > > My opinions only; I don't speak for Intel.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Park Seth-R01164 [mailto:seth.park@freescale.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:56 PM
> > > > To: dita-sidsc@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028
> How
> > to
> > > > share Excel file
> > > >
> > > > I use google docs often.
> > > >
> > > > If there's no OASIS objection, I think it's a fantastic
> > collaboration
> > > > suggestion.
> > > >
> > > > -rgds,
> > > > Seth
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Jeremy Ralph [DITA SIDSC] [mailto:jralph-sidsc@productive-
> > > > eda.com]
> > > >
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:53 PM
> > > > To: Beims Bob-RWBC70; dita-sidsc@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [dita-sidsc] Groups - Action Item Modified: #0028
> How
> > to
> > > > share Excel file
> > > >
> > > > Could we do this with Google docs? They have a good
collaborative
> > > > spreadsheet.  The existing Excel file could likely be imported.


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