OASIS Mailing List ArchivesView the OASIS mailing list archive below
or browse/search using MarkMail.

 


Help: OASIS Mailing Lists Help | MarkMail Help

dita-translation message

[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]

Subject: Agenda for DITA Translation SC meeting

Hi all,

Here's the agenda for today's meeting.

1. Role call

2. Approve last week's minutes as sent.

3. Discuss Translating required-cleanup (pick up from email thread attached)

4. Pick up our discussion of inline elements. From the minutes of our
previous meeting 2 weeks ago:

3) Begin a discussion of the best practices surrounding inline elements.
    - best practice targeted primarily to authors
    - JoAnn asks each member to consider a use case for best practice for 
        handling inline elements, e.g. adding index items (immediately 
        following text of element) at end of paragraph
    - Nancy -- Insert index items separate from the text flow, but put at 
        beginning of paragraph.
    - DISCUSSION about how index markers are associated with the text
        - Italic and bold (and other typographic elements) -- should not be
used, 
            since target languages don't always have them.
        - Discussion on how to handle typographical element in translation
        - SUMMARY -- Semantic inline elements should not cause problems in 
            localizations
        - Andrzej - subflows (e.g. index markers) cause problems when being 
            translated as part of the string being translated.
        - Discussion...
    --ACTION-- Nancy to start draft of our best practice recommendations,
and 
        everyone to send use case or statement to Nancy during the week, 
        especially situations of potential problems like container elements 
        around bulleted list or any other area we may run into a problem.



Best Regards,
Gershon

---
Gershon L Joseph
Member, OASIS DITA and DocBook Technical Committees
Director of Technology and Single Sourcing
Tech-Tav Documentation Ltd.
office: +972-8-974-1569
mobile: +972-57-314-1170
http://www.tech-tav.com
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi,

I wonder if this is more a development/localization process question.
According to the reference, "As the element name implies, the intent for
authors is to clean up the contained material and eventually get rid of
the <required-cleanup> element." and "Because the content of
<required-cleanup> is not considered to be verified data..." I take
those to mean the content needs editing, even if that's only tag or
attribute editing. I wouldn't think such content even be a candidate for
translation. I would expect it to be looping through some editorial
process. In the example below, the paragraph that has unverified data
should not be translated either. Assuming the content is correct, the
tagging errors would be propagated over the whole language set. Assuming
it isn't, both tagging errors and content errors are multiplied.

If it should make it out the door, I would take option one. That would
force people to choose to get risky content translated.

Kevin
  

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert D Anderson [mailto:robander@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 7:31 AM
To: dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org; mambrose@sdl.com;
pcarey@lexmark.com; rfletcher@sdl.com; bhertz@sdl.com; 'Richard Ishida';
tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com; 'Lieske, Christian'; 'Jennifer
Linton'; Munshi, Sukumar; Charles Pau; dpooley@sdl.com; Reynolds, Peter;
'Felix Sasaki'; 'Yves Savourel'; Dave A Schell; 'Bryan Schnabel'; Don
Day
Subject: [dita-translation] Translating required-cleanup


This question has come up a couple of times outside of the list, so I'd
like this group to address it:

The definition of the translate attribute indicates that it applies to
the current element and all nested elements, unless or until the value
changes in a nested element. We also have conventions that
<draft-comment> and <required-cleanup> should not be translated by
default, because they are not included in the output.

My understanding is that if a user places translate="yes" on a
required-cleanup element, this means that it should be translated. In
this case, the user knows best - the contents will be used for some
purpose, and should be translated.

What about this case?
<p translate="yes"> ...translatable text ...
  <required-cleanup> text in here </required-cleanup> </p>

From the definition of @translate, it seems that requried-cleanup will
inherit translate="yes", making it translatable. It also seems that, in
most cases, this is not the desired behavior. I'm wary of making this an
exception to the rule, though, because exceptions just make DITA more
difficult to implement.

I think what's actually wanted is that required-cleanup should have a
default setting of translate="no", set within the DTDs and schemas. This
means that the only way to make it translatable is to explicitly set the
attribute on the element. Specializations that are used for translatable
content, such as <reusableContent>, could change the default to "yes"
for that element.

What do others think? I think to clear up the confusion, we have to do
one of the following (I would vote for the first):
1. Give required-cleanup and draft-comment a default of @translate="no"
2. Clarify that the current @translate behavior always applies - it even
inherits for elements that do not usually get translated 3. Provide a
list of exceptions where @translate does not inherit

Any thoughts?

Thanks-

Robert D Anderson
IBM Authoring Tools Development
Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit
(507) 253-8787, T/L 553-8787
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 

This question has come up a couple of times outside of the list, so I'd
like this group to address it:

The definition of the translate attribute indicates that it applies to the
current element and all nested elements, unless or until the value changes
in a nested element. We also have conventions that <draft-comment> and
<required-cleanup> should not be translated by default, because they are
not included in the output.

My understanding is that if a user places translate="yes" on a
required-cleanup element, this means that it should be translated. In this
case, the user knows best - the contents will be used for some purpose, and
should be translated.

What about this case?
<p translate="yes"> ...translatable text ...
  <required-cleanup> text in here </required-cleanup>
</p>

From the definition of @translate, it seems that requried-cleanup will
inherit translate="yes", making it translatable. It also seems that, in
most cases, this is not the desired behavior. I'm wary of making this an
exception to the rule, though, because exceptions just make DITA more
difficult to implement.

I think what's actually wanted is that required-cleanup should have a
default setting of translate="no", set within the DTDs and schemas. This
means that the only way to make it translatable is to explicitly set the
attribute on the element. Specializations that are used for translatable
content, such as <reusableContent>, could change the default to "yes" for
that element.

What do others think? I think to clear up the confusion, we have to do one
of the following (I would vote for the first):
1. Give required-cleanup and draft-comment a default of @translate="no"
2. Clarify that the current @translate behavior always applies - it even
inherits for elements that do not usually get translated
3. Provide a list of exceptions where @translate does not inherit

Any thoughts?

Thanks-

Robert D Anderson
IBM Authoring Tools Development
Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit
(507) 253-8787, T/L 553-8787
--- End Message ---

[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]