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Subject: FW: Ruby and collation in DITA
JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD President Comtech Services, Inc. 710 Kipling Street, Suite 400 Denver CO 80215 303-232-7586 joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com -----Original Message----- From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 11:11 PM To: Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com Cc: Richard Ishida; JoAnn Hackos Subject: Re: Ruby and collation in DITA Thank you for your description, Deborah. On the non-technical, but also important side, I know that also the Japanese company Justsystem is involved in the development of DITA, so I hope that from this side there will be some pressure for more Ruby support. Felix Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com wrote: > > Hi Richard, Felix, > > I know that the DITA Translation subcommittee has shelved ruby for the > moment (according to the 13 August 2007 minutes), so this is largely > moot until it becomes unshelved . . . but as a kind of parting shot, I > wanted to say that you have convinced me of the need to keep <rp> in > DITA. > > In response to the W3C recommendation's remark: > > > "Some user agents might not understand ruby markup, or may not be > > > able to render ruby text appropriately." > I said: > > > There are no DITA user > > > agents that won't understand ruby markup. > > On further reflection, I'm wrong. There *is* a DITA user agent that > doesn't understand ruby: a topic that does not include the ruby > domain, but wants to conref a phrase from a topic that understands ruby. > > <!-- phrases.xml --> > <topic id="ja_phrases" xml:lang="ja" domains="(topic ruby)" > ... > <ruby id="kyoto"><rb>京都</rb><rp>(</rp><rt>きょうと</rt><rp>)</rp> > </ruby> > ... > </topic> > > <!-- Assuming that <ruby> specializes from <ph> --> <topic id="puller" > domains=""> ... > <p xml:lang="ja">私は<ph conref="phrases.xml#ja_phrases/kyoto"/>に行っ > た。</p> > ... > </topic> > > I'd expect that to resolve, after generalization-during-conref, as <p > xml:lang="ja">私は<ph><ph>京都</ph><ph>(< /ph><ph>きょうと</ph> > <ph>)</ph></ph>に行った。 </p> > and display as 私は京都(きょうと)に行った。 in the "puller" topic, as a passable > fallback for a topic that has no knowledge of ruby. > > Something to keep in mind whenever the need for ruby in DITA arises. > > -- > Deborah Pickett > Information Architect, Moldflow Corporation, Melbourne > Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com > > "Richard Ishida" <ishida@w3.org> wrote on 19/07/2007 06:58:45 PM: > > > Hello Deborah, Felix, > > > > I haven't been able to follow this discussion in detail, but here > are some > > thoughts that I hope may help... > > > > > > there is a use case to add parenthesis if the processor does not > > > > understand ruby <rp> , see > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/#fig1.7 as an example. > > > > > > That's certainly true of (X)HTML, which is what the TR says it is > > > for (right at the top in the abstract). But it's not true of DITA. > > > > > > The difference is in the opening sentence of section 1.2.2: > > > "Some user agents might not understand ruby markup, or may not be > > > able to render ruby text appropriately." > > > > > > In the context of DITA, a "user agent" would be the transformation > > > stylesheets (which will recognize the ruby content and generate > > > correct XHTML or PDF or whatever), or an editing tool (which will > > > recognize the ruby content and present it to the author, perhaps > > > with appropriate CSS :before and :after generated text). There are > > > no DITA user agents that won't understand ruby markup. That fact > > > evaporates the need for <rp>. > > > > But > > > > [1] what if DITA marked up content is converted to, say, XHTML and > displayed > > by a user agent that doesn't support ruby: how would an author > indicate what > > type of fallback parens they wanted to use? For example, characters > used for > > Japanese rp are likely to be different from those used in UK. A DITA > > processor may not need to use rp, but I think it would make for more > > interoperable *content* to allow it in the markup. > > > > [2] note that someone may actually want to display the ruby inline > > as a conscious presentational choice in certain contexts - see for > example the > > CSS Ruby Module that has an 'inline' value[1] for the 'display' > property. > > In that case, too, the author should be able to specify the > > preferred characters in rp elements. > > > > I guess what I'm saying is, authors can ignore rp if they feel DITA > > processors are the only things that will see their content, but it > would be > > better to allow for the full content model because (a) we can't > > always forsee how the content will be used, and (b) it won't harm > > the DITA processor. > > > > RI > > > > > > [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-css3-ruby-20021024/#properties Note > that > > the descriptive section for this value is missing from the spec and > needs to > > be added. > > > > > > ============ > > Richard Ishida > > Internationalization Lead > > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium) > > > > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ > > http://www.w3.org/International/ > > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/ > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com > > > [mailto:Deborah_Pickett@moldflow.com] > > > Sent: 19 July 2007 03:23 > > > To: Felix Sasaki > > > Cc: ishida@w3.org; joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com > > > Subject: Re: Ruby and collation in DITA > > > > >
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