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(Minutes taken by Seraphim Larsen <seraphim.l.larsen@intel.com>)

DITA Technical Committee website:  
    - Public:
    - Members only: http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/dita/

- Roll call
    - We do have quorum today.

- Review/approve minutes from previous meetings 
    - One item incorrectly attributed to Bruce Esrig; not sure to
      whom to attribute.
    - Seraphim moved to accept the minutes as read; Alan Houser
      seconded; approved by acclamation

- Actions (see
    - Not covered

- News: Mailing list for DITA Focus Area Editorial Board 
    - Don drew attention to the following posting: 

- Write-in:  Make sure we capture any items that have not been
  discussed -- no more new items to be accepted after the end of the
    - Action (Yas Ettessam):  Go through all the sign-up lists and
      minutes, and capture all the items that have been approved
      since June.  What is left over that hasn't been fully
        - Yas Ettessam volunteered to do that.

    - Don -- Is anyone working on anything else that still needs to
      be discussed/approved by the committee that will be ready by
      the end of the month?
        - Chris Kravogel -- 
            - #4 xNAL 
            - #5 ANSI warning labels
            - #8 Allow <tm> to contain images or logoized content
        - Indi Liepa -- Working on item #19 (more general task
          type), but stuck because of lack of time.   Do hope to
          finish by end of month.

        - Eric Sirois -- Item #35 (unknown element).  Trying to get
          all the people together so we can put the final proposal

        - Michael Priestley -- Plan to finish the following by end
          of month:
            - 6, 14, 17, 20, 40, 42, 43

- Resume prepared issues in queue: 
    - #45 Add "See", "See Also" indexing elements (original
      proposal--now replaced by the next 3) 

    - Issue #45: Add See, See Also indexing elements 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200510/msg00042.html

        - Eliot Kimber -- "See" is used when you have redirection to
          another entry in the index; if you have a "See", then you
          don't have anything else under that entry.  "See also"
          does allow you to have other items under that entry. 
        - Chris Wong -- Agrees.
        - Eliot -- But it doesn't seem that the content model is
          actually structured that way.
        - Bruce Esrig -- It may be necessary to be weak in that way.
          The existing content model doesn't specify that you can't
          break up the text mix with subordinate index entry info.
          In order to do that, you'd have to enclose the text in
          a new element. (Such as Michael's suggestion: <indextext>)
        - Eliot -- We're constrained by the current index term
          content model -- we don't have the option of defining new
          element types that have a more conventional content model
          (primary, secondary, tertiary) (such as in DocBook).
        - Don Day -- But by explicitly marking the hierarchy, you
          lose the ability to insert an index into another index.
        - Bruce -- You can make the tag names level-independent (as
          DITA already does).
        - Eliot -- How is that different from using
        - Bruce -- You can grab one of the lower pieces and use it
          again somewhere else.  (The scenario Don is proposing.)
            - For example, one item might appear under two headings:
              <indexterm>Fish <indexterm id="Carp">Carp</indexterm>
              </indexterm> ... later ...  <indexterm>Long thin
              things that swim <indexterm
              conref="filename.xml#Carp"></indexterm> </indexterm>
            - Note: A better example would show the level changing
              too.  Also, it would be better to have both instances
              get the indexentry for Carp from a separate file. 
        - Eliot -- But I can't imagine anyone actually doing that.
        - Don -- Someone might want to conref to an index term, from
          another index term.  
        - Eliot -- Why would that be better than just retyping the
          word "carp"?
        - Michael Priestley -- Seems to recall some fairly common
          situations where (for example) you'd have an API name, and
          you'd have that item under its own entry, and also under
          a generic index list that inluded all APIs.  
        - ?? - But would you do that with conref?
        - Paul Prescod -- Is anyone actually proposing that? (using
        - Michael Priestley -- What's the cost-benefit analysis for
          the user?
        - Eliot -- You have a wrapper that wraps around the primary,
          secondary, and tertiary entries.
        - Chris Wong -- We need to stay backwards-compatible; we
          can't restrict index-term further.  
        - Don -- The proper thing to do for 1.1 is to update the
          spec and define standard behavior for tools in respect to
          index-terms and for titles in sections--known loose
          structure at the base level.  
        - Michael -- 
        - Paul Prescod -- The user is putting things where they are
          not allowed -- exactly Eliot's comment.
        - Eliot -- The desire from the data-modelling viewpoint is
          that with "See" you don't have any levels in the content
        - Paul -- We are already down the path of defining these
        - Eliot -- Is that really where we are at?
        - Bruce -- There's a content model where all sub-elements
          are optional.  You have rules, but the language doesn't
          offer a convenient way of restricting it within the tool.
        - Robert Anderson -- Question: somebody said use "See" when
          there are no other subentries; use "See also" when there
          *are* other entries.  What happens when another topic
          defines a sub-entry?
        - Eliot -- Error condition.  
        - Bruce -- You can't ensure the global semantics because you
          are defining everything locally; the only way to check it
          is for the user to generate the index and see the
          erroneous result.
        - Chris Wong -- But the two mean different things when
          output in the index. Sometimes you do mean "see also" and
          not "see", even if there are no other entries.
        - Michael -- Robert has a legitimate use-case.  When you
          have a topic that gets reused in another collection of
        - Bruce -- If both "See" and "See Also" occur, then
          establish a rule that "See Also" is preferred?
        - Robert -- A topic can be used in one context where it is
          "see", and then reused in another collection where there
          are other sub-entries. Users should not have to change
          <see> to <see-also> for the new context.
        - Michael -- You define just one term, "See", and it changes
          to "See" or "See Also" depending on the context.  It's an
          override. Even if "See" is specified in the source, when
          any other content occurs (typically in another instance),
          the "See" gets converted to a "See also" for output
          purposes, and the other content is preserved in the
        - Chris Wong -- So it's a processing effect. The markup
          stays the same.  If a "see" has to be downgraded to a "see
          also", it suggests an error in the content.
        - Robert -- So - if a <see> ends up with other sub-entries,
          it changes to "See also" in the index output. The entry is
          still processed as a <see>, that is, the primary term does
          not get a page number where the <see> is defined.
        - Don -- Where do we go from here?  Take it to the list?  We
          need Erik Hennum's participation here anyway.  
        - Bruce -- We've had some dispersion on the list; we need to
          discuss this in conversation.  People are naming criteria
          whether to do or not do certain things.  It needs to be
          discussed in order to decide as a group which criteria to
        - Don -- So, we need Erik on the phone.
        - Paul -- Can we have interim calls focused on this topic?
        - Don -- Design issues should be worked out on the design
          teams.  Recommends that Chris sets up a workgroup call to
          converge on these design points.  The TC responsibility is
          simply to approve or disapprove.
        - Chris Wong -- Will take action to set up a conference call
          to discuss this issue.

        - That's all, out of time!
    - Issue #45a: Add sort order indexing elements 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200510/msg00043.html

        - No time, not addressed

    - Issue #45b: Add page range indexing elements 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200510/msg00044.html

        - No time, not addressed

    - Issue #47 Structured Sections 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200510/msg00045.html

        - No time, not addressed

    - Issue 34: Constraints - restriction without specialization
      (was replacement domains) 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200510/msg00047.html

        - No time, not addressed

    - Issue 32: Domain and topic integration 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200510/msg00048.html

        - No time, not addressed

- New proposals (unnumbered) from members: 
    - Extensibility of DITA through new attributes 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200508/msg00065.html

        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200508/msg00069.html
          and following 
        - No time, not addressed

    - Styling Options for Conditional Text 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200508/msg00066.html
          and following 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200509/msg00025.html

        - No time, not addressed

    - Recognizing DITA Documents 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200508/msg00067.html
          and following 
        - No time, not addressed

    - Start of documenting DITA design principles (Paul Prescod) 
        - http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200510/msg00005.html

        - No time, not addressed

8:50-8:55 Announcements/Opens 
        - No time, not addressed


Seraphim Larsen                       CIG Operations / TPPE
Senior Technical Writer                   Intel Corporation
(480) 552-6504                                 Chandler, AZ

The content of this message is my personal opinion only. 
Although I am an employee of Intel, the statements I make 
here in no way represent Intel's position on the issue, nor 
am I authorized to speak on behalf of Intel on this matter.

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