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Subject: FW: help with dita-translation message

Here is a note from Bruce Esrig regarding the ITS specification. Please
review and we will discuss this morning. Gershon cannot be on the call,
so we will not discuss his proposed best practice for translation memory
until next week.

JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD
Comtech Services, Inc.
710 Kipling Street, Suite 400
Denver, CO 80215
joannhackos Skype
-----Original Message-----
From: Esrig, Bruce (Bruce) [mailto:esrig@lucent.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:06 AM
To: 'Andrzej Zydron'; JoAnn Hackos
Subject: FW: help with dita-translation message

JoAnn or Andrzej, could you re-post since I'm not a subscriber?


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From: "Esrig, Bruce (Bruce)" <esrig@lucent.com>
To: "'Andrzej Zydron'" <azydron@xml-intl.com>,
        JoAnn Hackos
Cc: dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org, cwong@idiominc.com,
        mambrose@sdl.com, bhertz@sdl.com,
        Bryan Schnabel
	 <bryan.s.schnabel@tek.com>, charles_pau@us.ibm.com,
        christian.lieske@sap.com, dpooley@sdl.com, dschell@us.ibm.com,
        "Esrig, Bruce (Bruce)" <esrig@lucent.com>, fsasaki@w3.org,
        rfletcher@sdl.com, "Howard.Schwartz"
        Jennifer Linton <jennifer.linton@comtech-serv.com>,
        Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com, ishida@w3.org,
        tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com, KARA@CA.IBM.COM,
        ysavourel@translate.com, "'Erik Hennum'" <ehennum@us.ibm.com>
Subject: RE: [dita-translation] DITA SC Agenda Monday 12 2006
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0400
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Apologies in advance for writing in such a heavy style ... I'm catching
up on background thoughts that many of you already know and have
discussed, and then talking about implications for DITA.

A shortest-possible response to Andrzej's example would be that it
appears that DITA source markup might need an explicit indicator for
case, for use in translations.

After reading the minutes and the ITS spec discussion of terminology
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/#terms ...

The terminology markup in the ITS spec permits but does not require term
references that are more nearly translation-invariant. Would there be
someone who could write a use case that could be added to the ITS spec.
The use case would be based on the ideas in the next paragraph(s) to
emphasize the best practice (when adequate supporting tools are

The infoTermRef and alternatively the infoTermRefPointer attributes
could best be used to point to locations where all information about a
term occurrence appears:
 - the surface text of the occurrence in various languages and cases
 - definitions of the term in various languages
 - abbreviations and initialisms associated with the term

The prevalent practice in DITA of making termbases that you can conref
from does not result in translation-invariant source, as Andrzej's
example shows.

A best practice for DITA language design would be to abandon the view
that the author can specify the term occurrence, and instead ask the
author to specify how the processing system should build the term
occurrence. Because of the familiarity of the simpler approach (authors
specify the terms that they would like to have used), the best practice
might need to be done in a language extension, leaving the existing
mechanisms for use by projects that don't mind language-dependent

This is consistent with the principle that XML is founded on markup with
meaning. With regard to terminology, we should be using a pointer, not
the surface form of a term, as an identifier for the intended sense. We
then need further support in order to convert from the intended sense to
the desired surface form.

The DITA markup that builds an occurrence in an arbitrary target
language would specify what part of an entry in an idealized term base
to extract, such as the surface text of the term, in a particular case,
in a particular language. Or alternatively, the abbreviation or
initialism associated with the term on a particular project, in a
particular case, in a particular language.

Best wishes,

Bruce Esrig

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrzej Zydron [mailto:azydron@xml-intl.com]
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 3:11 AM
To: JoAnn Hackos
Cc: dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org; cwong@idiominc.com;
mambrose@sdl.com; bhertz@sdl.com; Bryan Schnabel;
charles_pau@us.ibm.com; christian.lieske@sap.com; dpooley@sdl.com;
dschell@us.ibm.com; esrig@lucent.com; fsasaki@w3.org; rfletcher@sdl.com;
Howard.Schwartz; Jennifer Linton; Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com;
ishida@w3.org; tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com; KARA@CA.IBM.COM;
Subject: Re: [dita-translation] DITA SC Agenda Monday 12 2006

Hi Everybody,

The following is an example of the use of an inline conref that could 
result in a grammatically incorrect target version of the sentence:

<p>Using a <term conref="termbase#e304bc"/><!-- hydraulic lift --> raise

the vehicle from the ground.</p>

Although this example would work perfectly well for non-inflected 
languages such as English or French, it would produce ungrammatical text

for any inflected language that requires an instrumentive form such as 
most Slavonic languages.

Best Regards,



email - azydron@xml-intl.com
smail - c/o Mr. A.Zydron
	PO Box 2167
         Gerrards Cross
         Bucks SL9 8XF
	United Kingdom
Mobile +(44) 7966 477 181
FAX    +(44) 1753 480 465
www - http://www.xml-intl.com

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