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Subject: RE: [dita] indexing question


Yes,

The Translation TC is worried about how this will be handled. As I understand it, we would need to treat an indexterm in the prolog differently than an indexterm in a block or inline element. We would treat the indexterm in the prolog as a “breaking” element and the indexterm in the text as a subflow.

 

We  are very concerned that different people would be translating each index element and would not know its context in a single topic.


JoAnn

 

JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD
President
Comtech Services, Inc.
710 Kipling Street, Suite 400
Denver, CO 80215
303-232-7586
joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com
joannhackos Skype

www.comtech-serv.com


From: Esrig, Bruce (Bruce) [mailto:esrig@lucent.com]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 4:34 PM
To: JoAnn Hackos; Chris Wong; Erik Hennum; Grosso, Paul
Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing question

 

Hmm ... first thoughts ...

 

If there is a mismatch, then no index entry would be generated. Such errors could be found during proofing or acceptance of a translated text by comparing the pre- and post-translation indexes after the translation is done and the topics are reassembled.

 

> Index entries using <keyword> should be processed as index terms referring to the beginning of the referenced topic.

 

Even though the metadata is not above the title and shortdesc, if by some change the title and shortdesc are alone on a page, the index entry should point to the page containing the title or (in scrolling environments) should like to an anchor that causes the title to be displayed at the top of the page.

 

> If you want an index term to span a group of topics ... Question: Is this allowed at all?

 

Yes. Is "do not do this" feedback from the translation SC?

 

Best wishes,

 

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: JoAnn Hackos [mailto:joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 6:08 PM
To: Esrig, Bruce (Bruce); Chris Wong; Erik Hennum; Grosso, Paul
Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing question

Chris, Erik, and Bruce,

I want to bring up a concern that was discussed at last Monday’s meeting of the Translation Subcommittee. We are working on an indexing best practice that ensures that index terms do not interrupt sentence flow for segmentation. In the discussion of index ranges, the translation professionals were concerned about having to duplicate the index tag content in the start and end tags. Please clarify for us if that is indeed the case:

 

Startindexterm = DITA and Endindexterm = DITA

 

The concern is that the indexterm may not be translated exactly the same way by two different translators working on topics in parallel or even by the same translator working at different times on different topics. That is – if the index start and end ranges can span topics (is that the case?).

 

There was also a concern that having the same text entered twice might result in a spelling error that would affect translation.

 

Here are the recommendations that the SC has been discussing. Please let me know if there are misconceptions.

 

  • Insert index entries that refer to entire topics in the prolog element using the <keywords> tag (prolog—metadata—keywords—indexterm). Index entries using <keyword> should be processed as index terms referring to the beginning of the referenced topic. clarify
  • Insert all block-level index tags immediately following the start tag of the nearest containing block element.
  • If an index term is intended to span several elements in one topic, insert the start range at beginning of start block (i.e., the parent block element) and the end range markup at end of the end block element. See Chris Wong
  • Question: Is this allowed at all?If you want an index term to span a group of topics, insert the start range of the index tag in the prolog of the first topic and the end tag in the prolog of the last topic in the DITA map. Do not do this. Prolog across multiple topics.

Thanks for your help, … JoAnn

 

JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD
President
Comtech Services, Inc.
710 Kipling Street, Suite 400
Denver, CO 80215
303-232-7586
joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com
joannhackos Skype

www.comtech-serv.com


From: Esrig, Bruce (Bruce) [mailto:esrig@lucent.com]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 4:23 PM
To: 'Chris Wong'; Erik Hennum; Grosso, Paul
Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing question

 

Well, we may need to discuss it, but here's a position statement.

 

------------

 

As Chris Wong wrote, index entries are point-like by default.

 

Here's a potential accomodation.

Chris wrote: > We can leave open the possibility that a processor may elect to treat an indexterm in a topic prolog as a page range: for example, if that topic is deeply nested.

This one is a tempting accomodation, but I'll try an argument that justifies not making this accomodation.

 

------------

 

Suppose that we are looking at a topic with no nested sub-topics.

 

When indexing the first reference to an item, the entry should generate a point reference to the initial point where that item enters the discussion. If the item is a prominent item within that scope, a reference to the initial point is sufficient, because the reader is likely to be interested in a large fraction of the scope without being prompted by an index entry.

 

If the item is a subsidiary item in the scope and only occurs once, a reference to the initial point is sufficient, because the item only occurs once.

 

If the item is a subsidiary item that occurs multiple times, or if the occurrences span multiple adjacent scopes, than a page range is appropriate.

 

--------------

 

Now applying these guidelines to topic-level index entries ...

 

A topic-level index entry is an assertion that the item is a prominent item within that scope. The reference is to the topic as a whole, and a reference to the initial point is sufficient.

 

A start-of-range assertion at the topic level is not well defined. How do you know in a single topic that there will be other subsequent topics that will address the same item? Ranges are inherently appropriate for spans across contents of a topic or contents of a grouping of topics.

 

In a map, a start-of-range assertion does make sense.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bruce

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Wong [mailto:cwong@idiominc.com]
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 6:05 PM
To: Erik Hennum; Grosso, Paul
Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing question

One question that comes to mind is: why would you want a page range that spans one and only one topic? For example, I pulled out my old "XML in a Nutshell" and looked up "Arabic Unicode block". This table spans 2 pages, but is only indexed with a page number pointing to the start of the topic. That is because the topic is so obviously self-enclosed that a single page reference is sufficient.

 

What I'd say is that an indexterm in a topic prolog points to the topic. Page range markers in a topic prolog has no meaning, since the indexterm is out of the content flow. So index-range-start/index-range-end should be ignored. This will allow an author to generate an index reference to a single topic by entering an indexterm in the topic prolog.

 

We can leave open the possibility that a processor may elect to treat an indexterm in a topic prolog as a page range: for example, if that topic is deeply nested.

 

Chris

 


From: Erik Hennum [mailto:ehennum@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 3:08 PM
To: Grosso, Paul
Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [dita] indexing question

Hi, Paul (Grosso) and Indexing Enthusiasts:

To follow up on the index range question, we had a fair bit of discussion about ranges last Fall. The consensus at the time was that ranges should be set explicitly. A sample from the thread:

http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/dita/email/archives/200510/msg00020.html


I guess my perspective remains that an indexterm in the prolog could be treated as a special case of a general rule: that an indexterm covers the content of its container and that processing emits a page range if the indexed container extends to more than 2 pages.

Even so, I don't want to undo the progress we've made:

http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/dita/download.php/18917/IssueNumber45b.html


Can we isolate any anomalies in the current indexing proposal and fix those quickly without changing the fundamental approach?

Paul, are you aware of other hiccups besides the requirement to index an entire topic from start of the title through the end of the related links or the end of the nested topics?

Chris (Wong), as the lead on the indexing proposal, do you have any suggestions?


Hoping that's useful,


Erik Hennum
ehennum@us.ibm.com

Inactive hide details for "Grosso, Paul" <pgrosso@ptc.com>"Grosso, Paul" <pgrosso@ptc.com>

"Grosso, Paul" <pgrosso@ptc.com>

06/29/2006 05:05 PM

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RE: [dita] indexing question

 

 


From: Erik Hennum [mailto:ehennum@us.ibm.com]
Sent:
Thursday, 2006 June 29 18:13
To:
JoAnn Hackos
Cc:
dita@lists.oasis-open.org; Grosso, Paul
Subject:
RE: [dita] indexing question


That said, we still need a way to generate a range over the whole topic.

Huh? I would have thought what you just said in the first paragraph means that an indexterm within the prolog generates a range over the whole topic. Now I'm really confused.



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