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Subject: RE: [dita] Issue for unifying acronyms and glossary

Hi JoAnn,

The "expanded form" has been retained. It appears below in the second
markup example as <glossFullForm>

Kara Warburton
IBM Terminology

IBM Intranet links:
Terminology WIKI: https://w3.webahead.ibm.com/w3ki/display/IBMterm/Home
IBM terminology: http://w3.ibm.com/standards/terminology
Terminology blog: http://blogs.tap.ibm.com/weblogs/page/kara@ca.ibm.com

             "JoAnn Hackos"                                            
             tech-serv.com>                                             To
                                       "Erik Hennum" <ehennum@us.ibm.com>,
             19/12/2007 08:31          <dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.
             AM                        org>                            
                                       "Andrzej Zydron"                
                                       "Gershon L Joseph"              
                                       <gershon@tech-tav.com>, "Ogden, 
                                       Jeff" <jogden@ptc.com>, Kara    
                                       RE: [dita] Issue for unifying   
                                       acronyms and glossary           

Please include the Translation SC in these emails. Everyone on the SC has a

What happened to the expanded form? We actually need everything that is in
our original proposal. Each item has a distinct purpose. Remember that
under no circumstances can translators change the XML.


JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD
Comtech Services, Inc.
710 Kipling Street, Suite 400
Denver CO 80215

From: Erik Hennum [mailto:ehennum@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:19 AM
To: JoAnn Hackos
Cc: Andrzej Zydron; dita@lists.oasis-open.org; Gershon L Joseph; Ogden,
Jeff; Kara Warburton
Subject: RE: [dita] Issue for unifying acronyms and glossary

Hi, Gershon and JoAnn:

I agree entirely that it would be good to take a little more time with
this. We really don't want to rush in something that will create problems
for years to come.

I'm wondering if the following refinements would improve the integrated
proposal for the minimalist term referencing use cases (including acronym

* Make <glossdef> optional.
* Make <glossPartOfSpeech> optional (assumed to default to noun if not
* Move <glossSurfaceForm> to <glossBody> and specialize from <p> on the
grounds that the surface form will never have usage or linguistic
properties; ie, it's better to treat the surface form as a property of the
preferred form of the term rather than as an alternate form.

That allows minimalist declarations of terms like the following:
      <glossgroup id="carterms">

      <glossentry id="abs">
      <glossSurfaceForm>Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)</glossSurfaceForm>

      ... minimalist glossentry declarations for other terms ...


Note that the acronym is represented as a glossterm. That handles the case
where translation workbench software isn't able to change elements -- that
is, the translator doesn't change the element. As specified in the current
integrated proposal, references to the abs topic via keyref will resolve to
<glossterm> text in most cases but to the <glossSurfaceForm> text where the
more complete form is appropriate.

The best practice for glossentries would be much more complete similar to
the following (where translation software can modify markup):
      <glossgroup id="carterms">
      <title>Car terminology</title>

      <glossentry id="abs">
      <glossdef>A brake technology that minimizes skids.</glossdef>
      <glossSurfaceForm>Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)</glossSurfaceForm>
      <glossPartOfSpeech value="noun"/>
      <glossFullForm>Anti-lock Braking System</glossFullForm>

      ... best practice glossentries for other terms ...


Such best practices could be enforced by constraints.

That still leaves the case where someone wants to create precise
terminology declarations but has translation software that can't handle
markup changes. One possibility would be to identify that the term is a
preferred term with <glossterm> but also identify the term as an acronym
with the <glossAcronym> element in the <glossAlt> section. For that
approach to work, processors would have to detect the duplication:
      <glossgroup id="carterms">
      <title>Car terminology</title>

      <glossentry id="abs">
      <glossdef>A brake technology that minimizes skids.</glossdef>
      <glossSurfaceForm>Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)</glossSurfaceForm>
      <glossPartOfSpeech value="noun"/>
      <glossFullForm>Anti-lock Braking System</glossFullForm>

      ... compromise glossentries for other terms ...


Does that scale from term referencing to glossary publishing to terminology
capture for automated text analysis?

Do people see issues with that approach?


Erik Hennum

(Embedded image moved to file: pic02843.gif)Inactive hide details for
"JoAnn Hackos" <joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com>"JoAnn Hackos"

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                         >             "Gershon L Joseph"              
                                       <gershon@tech-tav.com>, Erik    
                         12/18/        <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>     
                         2007   (Embedded image moved to file:         
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                                       (Embedded image moved to file:  
                                       "Andrzej Zydron"                
                                       <azydron@xml-intl.com>, "Ogden, 
                                       Jeff" <jogden@ptc.com>, "Kara   
                                       Warburton" <KARA@CA.IBM.COM>    
                                (Embedded image moved to file:         
                                       (Embedded image moved to file:  
                                       RE: [dita] Issue for unifying   
                                       acronyms and glossary           
                                (Embedded image moved to file:         
                                          (Embedded image moved to file:

I agree with Gershon,
This is not possible. We do not want translators who don?t know anything
about DITA to add XML markup to anything.

JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD
Comtech Services, Inc.
710 Kipling Street, Suite 400
Denver, CO 80215
joannhackos Skype

From: Gershon L Joseph [mailto:gershon@tech-tav.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 9:07 AM
To: Erik Hennum; dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Cc: JoAnn Hackos; Andrzej Zydron; Ogden, Jeff; Kara Warburton
Subject: Re: [dita] Issue for unifying acronyms and glossary

Hi Erik,

I thought the surface form was intended to be used by the translators when
a straight translation of the acronym is not appropriate for the target

I don't think option 2 is viable. It's not only way beyond current
translation software, it's also going to be an issue for content management
systems. They need to maintain a relationship between the source language
and each translation, to identify what's changed in the source since the
previous translation was done. I'm not aware of any CMS today that would
support keeping track of changing markup in addition to the date of the
source content.

I suspect we'll need more time to hash this one out. I can't see us getting
to a final proposal today.


----- Original Message ----
From: Erik Hennum <ehennum@us.ibm.com>
To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Cc: JoAnn Hackos <joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com>; Andrzej Zydron
<azydron@xml-intl.com>; Gershon L Joseph <gershon@tech-tav.com>; "Ogden,
Jeff" <jogden@ptc.com>; Kara Warburton <KARA@CA.IBM.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 12:02:57 AM
Subject: [dita] Issue for unifying acronyms and glossary

Hi, Terminology Enthusiasts:

JoAnn and I had a useful conversation about the integrated acronym and
glossary proposal:

To refresh, the rationale for integrating the acronym and glossary
proposals is to let user declare a term once for all terminology purposes
instead of declaring the same term in different ways for glossary
publication, text analysis dictionaries, and localization. The principle of
defining a thing once and referring to it multiple times (also known as DRY
or Don't Repeat Yourself) is generally accepted as important for good
design in XML. In particular, it would be quite unfortunate if DITA had two
different ways to declare and reference an acronym and its full form.

While JoAnn is still reviewing the integrated proposal, the conversation
identified one issue: how to handle cases where an acronym or abbreviation
is the preferred term in the original language but doesn't exist or isn't
the preferred term in the target language.

The current integrated proposal envisions that the translator will change
the element for the preferred term from <glossAcronym> to <glossterm> -- in
essence, creating an appropriate glossentry for the target language.
Current translation workbench software, however, typically allows a
translator to edit content but not to change elements.

Two ways of handling this case occur to me:

1. Modify the currently specified expectations for linktext resolution
behavior for glossary references to fall back to <glossFullForm> when the
preferred term is empty and to <glossSurfaceForm> is not appropriate. This
behavior would be a lightweight addition for processes that get the
linktext from <glossSurfaceForm> in some contexts.

2. Expect that translation workbench software will distinguish terminology
declaration markup from content and support translators in modifying term
declaration markup to create a glossentry suitable for the locale but not
in in changing the content markup.

The second approach would seem to provide greater flexibility. For
instance, the second approach can handle the case where an abbreviation is
the preferred form in the original language and the abbreviation exists in
the target language but the full form is preferred. Also, the second
approach would be required if the term is included in a published glossary
so the appropriate title is available to topic processing.

However, the second approach does require implementers of translation
workbench software to add full support for markup editing, which is
significantly different from support for content editing. (In passing, a
multi-level <indexterm> provides another case where the number of levels
and thus the markup might be appropriate to change in translation.)

It would be possible to specify both approaches as expectations. A
translation workbench that supports locale-specific terminology
declarations won't create cases that take advantage of the fallback
processing; other translation workbenches will.

Do you see other ways of resolving this problem?

Erik Hennum










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