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Subject: RE: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST requirements?


I really think we need to have a reset on our ideas for conformance
for the DITA 1.2 spec.

Some of us have been in the standards business for a quarter of
a century.  (Some of us have written technical standards with 
lawyers, right Eliot?)  

It takes a humungous effort to write a standard of any size 
that is precise enough to make detailed conformance criteria 
really feasible.  The current DITA standard is so far from 
being there--and the TC members are so far from having the
time and expertise to get it there--that we simply cannot 
expect to get there for DITA 1.2.

And, in fact, writing a spec that is so carefully phrased
may well make it less comprehensible to the average reader
and, in the end, make it less easy for implementors to
comply to.

Finally, we really have to get DITA 1.2 out.  If we were a
software company, our customers would have given up on us
by now and be demanding their maintenance contract money back.

Let's realize we cannot make another pass through the spec
for conformance language, go for the simplest conformance 
statement we can make, and get on with it.

paul



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dana Spradley [mailto:dana.spradley@oracle.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 2010 January 12 15:25
> To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST
> requirements?
> 
> Looking over Don's notes from today's meeting, I paused over the
> following:
> 
> >Discussion of Conformance section.
> >Sue-Laine asked for clarification of the goals. Dana asked about Must
> >requirements; Eliot: issue is processor requirements vs coding (data)
> >requirements (conventions for human  understanding as well as machine
> >interoperability).
> 
> If our coding standards are only intended to promote human
> understanding - and aren't sufficient to automate the interchange of
> new DTD/XSD modules - can they really be "must" requirements?
> 
> I don't think so...
> 
> Basically: if by following them in a fashion that DTD/XSD editors could
> automate, you can't ensure "plug and play" interoperability between
> DITA installations and across different vendors' DITA implementations -
> then they are "may" standards at best - or merely best practices that
> the TC itself follows in the DTDs and XSDs we release.
> 
> Perhaps that is why they were originally called "design patterns," not
> "coding standards."
> 
> --Dana
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dond@us.ibm.com [mailto:dond@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:28 AM
> To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: [dita] Groups - OASIS DITA TC Meeting modified
> 
> Minutes embedded in today's meeting notice. Will upload separately as
> 13January2010Minutes.txt.
> 
>  -- Don Day
> 
> 
> OASIS DITA TC Meeting has been modified by Don Day
> 
> Date:  Tuesday, 12 January 2010
> Time:  08:00am - 09:00am PT
> 
> Event Description:
> Toll Numbers:
> USA +1-770-615-1250
> Toll-Free Numbers:
> USA 877-421-0033
> Participant Passcode: 610708
> (Hosted by IBM)
> WebEx Web Conferencing (hosted by Cisco):
> 1. Go to
> https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=116261262&;
> P
> W=22ee1a12575d4f0d
> 2. Enter your name and email address.
> 3. Enter the meeting password: dita
> 4. Click "Join Now".
> 
> Agenda:
> Agenda for 13 January 2010 DITA TC Meeting/Call
> 
> See the DITA TC Wiki: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/dita/FrontPage
> 
> Minutes:
> Minutes for 13 January 2010 DITA TC Meeting/Call
> 
> 8:00-8:05 Roll call
> 
> Solicit volunteer to take minutes
> >Don (note that actions are bracketed for visibility)
> 
> Approve minutes from previous business meetings:
> >Skipped, no minutes available from Jan 5
> 
> Subcommittee/liaison reports (as needed)
>     * OASIS DITA Adoption TC (Gershon)
> >Skipped for focus on review
> 
> Business:
>    1. ITEM: DITA 1.2 specification
>           * Business (edited by Eberlein, 5 and 12 January 2010 for 12
> January TC meeting):
>                1. Status of 3rd review:
> >Kristen: Reviewers, please update statuses.
>                2. Opening of review for the "Subject scheme map" topic:
> SubjectSchemeMap3: Wiki page
> >Kristen noted guidelines for reviewers. Kristen will send out an email
> >announcing formal update of this review. JoAnn: reviewers, please add
> >substantive, researched text if at all possible. Kris suggested
> >designating EH and RDA as primary reviewers. JoAnn felt Taxonomy
> should
> >be in another topic, Kristen noted they'll look at recommendations for
> that. JoAnn asked if a relationship table should be in a subject scheme
> map.
> >[Action: Kristen will add links to review page for the subject scheme
> >topic for the proposed email to the list.] Robert volunteered to
> >review, and will involve Erik as necessary. Bruce Nevin volunteered
> 
>                3. Issue identified in review #3: Redundant topics
> >Gershon led this portion of discussion. Note the author's table--now
> >the current focus of activity. Authors, please send dates of
> completion to Gershon and Kristen.
> >Kristen: MP noted that the introduction sections overlap other
> conceptual topics in other parts of the spec.
> >She will send revision suggestions to the list.
> >Gershon walked through the rest of the table to clarify actions with
> authors.
> >Gershon requested someone to take on the Base DITA Processing items
> >particularly. He will own the full section (135+ comments to date).
> > Eliot to let Gershon and Kristen know if reorganization of his
> section
> >is needed yet. Will coordinate with  Jeff, MP as necessary.
> > Robert reported that John Hunt in on progress for all inputs this
> week. Robert also on goal for this week.
> >[Action: Gershon to send an email to John Hunt to confirm when he will
> >be able to complete those inputs.]  Discussion of Conformance section.
> >Sue-Laine asked for clarification of the goals. Dana asked about Must
> >requirements; Eliot: issue is processor requirements vs coding (data)
> >requirements (conventions for human  understanding as well as machine
> >interoperability).  Eliot: element matching vs class matching impacts
> guaranteed conformance, for example. Where the spec says Must,
> applications must conform. Dana requests that  interoperability notions
> be spelled out as specifically as possible. Kristen: how to move
> forward? Sue-Laine:
> > more eyes on it to ensure it is meeting needs (KE will volunteer; SY
> will ask her partners to look as well).
> >[Action: Sue-Laine to contact Eliot for clarifications.]  Eliot
> >suggested that it can be abbreviated while still making some strong
> >assertions about compliant DITA  expectations. Jeff requested release
> >from ownership of where the rewrite may go. Kristen recognized Jeff's
> contributions to this conformance statement thus far for the record.
> >Appendices: no current owner. Eliot will be responsible for interop
> and
> >1.1 to 1.2 migration guide.  Robert has updated the element by element
> topic--it is done for 1.2.
> >Gershon and Kristen will send new dates after taking inputs this week.
>                4. Status of authors' work handling review #3 comments:
> url
>                5. Revise schedule to accommodate the following items:
>                6. Status: PDF output of the DITA 1.2 spec (Kimber)
>                7. Heads-up about future changes
>                8. Low(er) priority items:
>    2. ITEM: Metadata Elements
> >Completed last week
>    3. ITEM: Foreign element description
> >Completed last week
>    4. New ITEMS: (if not covered in review items for #1,above)
>           * DITA 1.2 Conformance
> >Discussed above
>           * Conditional processing
> >Comments already in wiki
>           * Filtering logic for  element
> >Sue-Laine notes that wording to date is now or soon to be on the wiki.
> >Gershon: keep filtering discussion on the list, and resolve to the
> wiki
> >if possible. If the list discussion remains open next week, then we
> can keep this item on the agenda.
>    5. New ITEM: PDF Generation for Spec Draft
>           * http://lists.oasis-
> open.org/archives/dita/201001/msg00074.html (Kimber, Self, Joseph, and
> others)
>           * Discuss any further customizations; need volunteer to set
> up wiki page for process documentation
> >Don acknowledged work by Robert and Kristen as well, and thanked the
> >preparers for helping on the production quality issues. Please help
> Eliot with his tweaking questions on the list as this new plugin gets
> tested.
> 
> 8:55 Adjourn
> 
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