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Subject: RE: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST requirements?


I'm actually not a big fan of mandatory design patterns,
so I'm not weighing in on that particular topic.  I wasn't 
responding to your particular message so much as responding
to the last couple months of discussion on conformance details.

paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dana Spradley [mailto:dana.spradley@oracle.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 2010 January 12 17:43
> To: Grosso, Paul; dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST
> requirements?
> 
> Fine by me Paul - if by simplest you mean not trying to enforce "must"
> language where "should," "may," or merely descriptive (of our "best"
> practice) language would do.
> 
> I objected to "mandatory design patterns" for these in the initial
> review, and spelled out my reasoning along these lines. I'm surprised
> to see that so little has changed by this draft.
> 
> --Dana
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grosso, Paul [mailto:pgrosso@ptc.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:53 PM
> To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST
> requirements?
> 
> I really think we need to have a reset on our ideas for conformance
> for the DITA 1.2 spec.
> 
> Some of us have been in the standards business for a quarter of
> a century.  (Some of us have written technical standards with
> lawyers, right Eliot?)
> 
> It takes a humungous effort to write a standard of any size
> that is precise enough to make detailed conformance criteria
> really feasible.  The current DITA standard is so far from
> being there--and the TC members are so far from having the
> time and expertise to get it there--that we simply cannot
> expect to get there for DITA 1.2.
> 
> And, in fact, writing a spec that is so carefully phrased
> may well make it less comprehensible to the average reader
> and, in the end, make it less easy for implementors to
> comply to.
> 
> Finally, we really have to get DITA 1.2 out.  If we were a
> software company, our customers would have given up on us
> by now and be demanding their maintenance contract money back.
> 
> Let's realize we cannot make another pass through the spec
> for conformance language, go for the simplest conformance
> statement we can make, and get on with it.
> 
> paul
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dana Spradley [mailto:dana.spradley@oracle.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 2010 January 12 15:25
> > To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST
> > requirements?
> >
> > Looking over Don's notes from today's meeting, I paused over the
> > following:
> >
> > >Discussion of Conformance section.
> > >Sue-Laine asked for clarification of the goals. Dana asked about
> Must
> > >requirements; Eliot: issue is processor requirements vs coding
> (data)
> > >requirements (conventions for human  understanding as well as
> machine
> > >interoperability).
> >
> > If our coding standards are only intended to promote human
> > understanding - and aren't sufficient to automate the interchange of
> > new DTD/XSD modules - can they really be "must" requirements?
> >
> > I don't think so...
> >
> > Basically: if by following them in a fashion that DTD/XSD editors
> could
> > automate, you can't ensure "plug and play" interoperability between
> > DITA installations and across different vendors' DITA implementations
> -
> > then they are "may" standards at best - or merely best practices that
> > the TC itself follows in the DTDs and XSDs we release.
> >
> > Perhaps that is why they were originally called "design patterns,"
> not
> > "coding standards."
> >
> > --Dana
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dond@us.ibm.com [mailto:dond@us.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:28 AM
> > To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: [dita] Groups - OASIS DITA TC Meeting modified
> >
> > Minutes embedded in today's meeting notice. Will upload separately as
> > 13January2010Minutes.txt.
> >
> >  -- Don Day
> >
> >
> > OASIS DITA TC Meeting has been modified by Don Day
> >
> > Date:  Tuesday, 12 January 2010
> > Time:  08:00am - 09:00am PT
> >
> > Event Description:
> > Toll Numbers:
> > USA +1-770-615-1250
> > Toll-Free Numbers:
> > USA 877-421-0033
> > Participant Passcode: 610708
> > (Hosted by IBM)
> > WebEx Web Conferencing (hosted by Cisco):
> > 1. Go to
> >
> https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=116261262&;
> > P
> > W=22ee1a12575d4f0d
> > 2. Enter your name and email address.
> > 3. Enter the meeting password: dita
> > 4. Click "Join Now".
> >
> > Agenda:
> > Agenda for 13 January 2010 DITA TC Meeting/Call
> >
> > See the DITA TC Wiki: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/dita/FrontPage
> >
> > Minutes:
> > Minutes for 13 January 2010 DITA TC Meeting/Call
> >
> > 8:00-8:05 Roll call
> >
> > Solicit volunteer to take minutes
> > >Don (note that actions are bracketed for visibility)
> >
> > Approve minutes from previous business meetings:
> > >Skipped, no minutes available from Jan 5
> >
> > Subcommittee/liaison reports (as needed)
> >     * OASIS DITA Adoption TC (Gershon)
> > >Skipped for focus on review
> >
> > Business:
> >    1. ITEM: DITA 1.2 specification
> >           * Business (edited by Eberlein, 5 and 12 January 2010 for
> 12
> > January TC meeting):
> >                1. Status of 3rd review:
> > >Kristen: Reviewers, please update statuses.
> >                2. Opening of review for the "Subject scheme map"
> topic:
> > SubjectSchemeMap3: Wiki page
> > >Kristen noted guidelines for reviewers. Kristen will send out an
> email
> > >announcing formal update of this review. JoAnn: reviewers, please
> add
> > >substantive, researched text if at all possible. Kris suggested
> > >designating EH and RDA as primary reviewers. JoAnn felt Taxonomy
> > should
> > >be in another topic, Kristen noted they'll look at recommendations
> for
> > that. JoAnn asked if a relationship table should be in a subject
> scheme
> > map.
> > >[Action: Kristen will add links to review page for the subject
> scheme
> > >topic for the proposed email to the list.] Robert volunteered to
> > >review, and will involve Erik as necessary. Bruce Nevin volunteered
> >
> >                3. Issue identified in review #3: Redundant topics
> > >Gershon led this portion of discussion. Note the author's table--now
> > >the current focus of activity. Authors, please send dates of
> > completion to Gershon and Kristen.
> > >Kristen: MP noted that the introduction sections overlap other
> > conceptual topics in other parts of the spec.
> > >She will send revision suggestions to the list.
> > >Gershon walked through the rest of the table to clarify actions with
> > authors.
> > >Gershon requested someone to take on the Base DITA Processing items
> > >particularly. He will own the full section (135+ comments to date).
> > > Eliot to let Gershon and Kristen know if reorganization of his
> > section
> > >is needed yet. Will coordinate with  Jeff, MP as necessary.
> > > Robert reported that John Hunt in on progress for all inputs this
> > week. Robert also on goal for this week.
> > >[Action: Gershon to send an email to John Hunt to confirm when he
> will
> > >be able to complete those inputs.]  Discussion of Conformance
> section.
> > >Sue-Laine asked for clarification of the goals. Dana asked about
> Must
> > >requirements; Eliot: issue is processor requirements vs coding
> (data)
> > >requirements (conventions for human  understanding as well as
> machine
> > >interoperability).  Eliot: element matching vs class matching
> impacts
> > guaranteed conformance, for example. Where the spec says Must,
> > applications must conform. Dana requests that  interoperability
> notions
> > be spelled out as specifically as possible. Kristen: how to move
> > forward? Sue-Laine:
> > > more eyes on it to ensure it is meeting needs (KE will volunteer;
> SY
> > will ask her partners to look as well).
> > >[Action: Sue-Laine to contact Eliot for clarifications.]  Eliot
> > >suggested that it can be abbreviated while still making some strong
> > >assertions about compliant DITA  expectations. Jeff requested
> release
> > >from ownership of where the rewrite may go. Kristen recognized
> Jeff's
> > contributions to this conformance statement thus far for the record.
> > >Appendices: no current owner. Eliot will be responsible for interop
> > and
> > >1.1 to 1.2 migration guide.  Robert has updated the element by
> element
> > topic--it is done for 1.2.
> > >Gershon and Kristen will send new dates after taking inputs this
> week.
> >                4. Status of authors' work handling review #3
> comments:
> > url
> >                5. Revise schedule to accommodate the following items:
> >                6. Status: PDF output of the DITA 1.2 spec (Kimber)
> >                7. Heads-up about future changes
> >                8. Low(er) priority items:
> >    2. ITEM: Metadata Elements
> > >Completed last week
> >    3. ITEM: Foreign element description
> > >Completed last week
> >    4. New ITEMS: (if not covered in review items for #1,above)
> >           * DITA 1.2 Conformance
> > >Discussed above
> >           * Conditional processing
> > >Comments already in wiki
> >           * Filtering logic for  element
> > >Sue-Laine notes that wording to date is now or soon to be on the
> wiki.
> > >Gershon: keep filtering discussion on the list, and resolve to the
> > wiki
> > >if possible. If the list discussion remains open next week, then we
> > can keep this item on the agenda.
> >    5. New ITEM: PDF Generation for Spec Draft
> >           * http://lists.oasis-
> > open.org/archives/dita/201001/msg00074.html (Kimber, Self, Joseph,
> and
> > others)
> >           * Discuss any further customizations; need volunteer to set
> > up wiki page for process documentation
> > >Don acknowledged work by Robert and Kristen as well, and thanked the
> > >preparers for helping on the production quality issues. Please help
> > Eliot with his tweaking questions on the list as this new plugin gets
> > tested.
> >
> > 8:55 Adjourn
> >
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