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Subject: RE: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST requirements?
I'm actually not a big fan of mandatory design patterns, so I'm not weighing in on that particular topic. I wasn't responding to your particular message so much as responding to the last couple months of discussion on conformance details. paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Dana Spradley [mailto:dana.spradley@oracle.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 2010 January 12 17:43 > To: Grosso, Paul; dita@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: RE: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST > requirements? > > Fine by me Paul - if by simplest you mean not trying to enforce "must" > language where "should," "may," or merely descriptive (of our "best" > practice) language would do. > > I objected to "mandatory design patterns" for these in the initial > review, and spelled out my reasoning along these lines. I'm surprised > to see that so little has changed by this draft. > > --Dana > > -----Original Message----- > From: Grosso, Paul [mailto:pgrosso@ptc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 1:53 PM > To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: RE: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST > requirements? > > I really think we need to have a reset on our ideas for conformance > for the DITA 1.2 spec. > > Some of us have been in the standards business for a quarter of > a century. (Some of us have written technical standards with > lawyers, right Eliot?) > > It takes a humungous effort to write a standard of any size > that is precise enough to make detailed conformance criteria > really feasible. The current DITA standard is so far from > being there--and the TC members are so far from having the > time and expertise to get it there--that we simply cannot > expect to get there for DITA 1.2. > > And, in fact, writing a spec that is so carefully phrased > may well make it less comprehensible to the average reader > and, in the end, make it less easy for implementors to > comply to. > > Finally, we really have to get DITA 1.2 out. If we were a > software company, our customers would have given up on us > by now and be demanding their maintenance contract money back. > > Let's realize we cannot make another pass through the spec > for conformance language, go for the simplest conformance > statement we can make, and get on with it. > > paul > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dana Spradley [mailto:dana.spradley@oracle.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, 2010 January 12 15:25 > > To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org > > Subject: [dita] Can conventions for human understanding be MUST > > requirements? > > > > Looking over Don's notes from today's meeting, I paused over the > > following: > > > > >Discussion of Conformance section. > > >Sue-Laine asked for clarification of the goals. Dana asked about > Must > > >requirements; Eliot: issue is processor requirements vs coding > (data) > > >requirements (conventions for human understanding as well as > machine > > >interoperability). > > > > If our coding standards are only intended to promote human > > understanding - and aren't sufficient to automate the interchange of > > new DTD/XSD modules - can they really be "must" requirements? > > > > I don't think so... > > > > Basically: if by following them in a fashion that DTD/XSD editors > could > > automate, you can't ensure "plug and play" interoperability between > > DITA installations and across different vendors' DITA implementations > - > > then they are "may" standards at best - or merely best practices that > > the TC itself follows in the DTDs and XSDs we release. > > > > Perhaps that is why they were originally called "design patterns," > not > > "coding standards." > > > > --Dana > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dond@us.ibm.com [mailto:dond@us.ibm.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:28 AM > > To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org > > Subject: [dita] Groups - OASIS DITA TC Meeting modified > > > > Minutes embedded in today's meeting notice. Will upload separately as > > 13January2010Minutes.txt. > > > > -- Don Day > > > > > > OASIS DITA TC Meeting has been modified by Don Day > > > > Date: Tuesday, 12 January 2010 > > Time: 08:00am - 09:00am PT > > > > Event Description: > > Toll Numbers: > > USA +1-770-615-1250 > > Toll-Free Numbers: > > USA 877-421-0033 > > Participant Passcode: 610708 > > (Hosted by IBM) > > WebEx Web Conferencing (hosted by Cisco): > > 1. Go to > > > https://ciscosales.webex.com/ciscosales/e.php?AT=WMI&EventID=116261262& > > P > > W=22ee1a12575d4f0d > > 2. Enter your name and email address. > > 3. Enter the meeting password: dita > > 4. Click "Join Now". > > > > Agenda: > > Agenda for 13 January 2010 DITA TC Meeting/Call > > > > See the DITA TC Wiki: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/dita/FrontPage > > > > Minutes: > > Minutes for 13 January 2010 DITA TC Meeting/Call > > > > 8:00-8:05 Roll call > > > > Solicit volunteer to take minutes > > >Don (note that actions are bracketed for visibility) > > > > Approve minutes from previous business meetings: > > >Skipped, no minutes available from Jan 5 > > > > Subcommittee/liaison reports (as needed) > > * OASIS DITA Adoption TC (Gershon) > > >Skipped for focus on review > > > > Business: > > 1. ITEM: DITA 1.2 specification > > * Business (edited by Eberlein, 5 and 12 January 2010 for > 12 > > January TC meeting): > > 1. Status of 3rd review: > > >Kristen: Reviewers, please update statuses. > > 2. Opening of review for the "Subject scheme map" > topic: > > SubjectSchemeMap3: Wiki page > > >Kristen noted guidelines for reviewers. Kristen will send out an > email > > >announcing formal update of this review. JoAnn: reviewers, please > add > > >substantive, researched text if at all possible. Kris suggested > > >designating EH and RDA as primary reviewers. JoAnn felt Taxonomy > > should > > >be in another topic, Kristen noted they'll look at recommendations > for > > that. JoAnn asked if a relationship table should be in a subject > scheme > > map. > > >[Action: Kristen will add links to review page for the subject > scheme > > >topic for the proposed email to the list.] Robert volunteered to > > >review, and will involve Erik as necessary. Bruce Nevin volunteered > > > > 3. Issue identified in review #3: Redundant topics > > >Gershon led this portion of discussion. Note the author's table--now > > >the current focus of activity. Authors, please send dates of > > completion to Gershon and Kristen. > > >Kristen: MP noted that the introduction sections overlap other > > conceptual topics in other parts of the spec. > > >She will send revision suggestions to the list. > > >Gershon walked through the rest of the table to clarify actions with > > authors. > > >Gershon requested someone to take on the Base DITA Processing items > > >particularly. He will own the full section (135+ comments to date). > > > Eliot to let Gershon and Kristen know if reorganization of his > > section > > >is needed yet. Will coordinate with Jeff, MP as necessary. > > > Robert reported that John Hunt in on progress for all inputs this > > week. Robert also on goal for this week. > > >[Action: Gershon to send an email to John Hunt to confirm when he > will > > >be able to complete those inputs.] Discussion of Conformance > section. > > >Sue-Laine asked for clarification of the goals. Dana asked about > Must > > >requirements; Eliot: issue is processor requirements vs coding > (data) > > >requirements (conventions for human understanding as well as > machine > > >interoperability). Eliot: element matching vs class matching > impacts > > guaranteed conformance, for example. Where the spec says Must, > > applications must conform. Dana requests that interoperability > notions > > be spelled out as specifically as possible. Kristen: how to move > > forward? Sue-Laine: > > > more eyes on it to ensure it is meeting needs (KE will volunteer; > SY > > will ask her partners to look as well). > > >[Action: Sue-Laine to contact Eliot for clarifications.] Eliot > > >suggested that it can be abbreviated while still making some strong > > >assertions about compliant DITA expectations. Jeff requested > release > > >from ownership of where the rewrite may go. Kristen recognized > Jeff's > > contributions to this conformance statement thus far for the record. > > >Appendices: no current owner. Eliot will be responsible for interop > > and > > >1.1 to 1.2 migration guide. Robert has updated the element by > element > > topic--it is done for 1.2. > > >Gershon and Kristen will send new dates after taking inputs this > week. > > 4. Status of authors' work handling review #3 > comments: > > url > > 5. Revise schedule to accommodate the following items: > > 6. Status: PDF output of the DITA 1.2 spec (Kimber) > > 7. Heads-up about future changes > > 8. Low(er) priority items: > > 2. ITEM: Metadata Elements > > >Completed last week > > 3. ITEM: Foreign element description > > >Completed last week > > 4. New ITEMS: (if not covered in review items for #1,above) > > * DITA 1.2 Conformance > > >Discussed above > > * Conditional processing > > >Comments already in wiki > > * Filtering logic for element > > >Sue-Laine notes that wording to date is now or soon to be on the > wiki. > > >Gershon: keep filtering discussion on the list, and resolve to the > > wiki > > >if possible. If the list discussion remains open next week, then we > > can keep this item on the agenda. > > 5. New ITEM: PDF Generation for Spec Draft > > * http://lists.oasis- > > open.org/archives/dita/201001/msg00074.html (Kimber, Self, Joseph, > and > > others) > > * Discuss any further customizations; need volunteer to set > > up wiki page for process documentation > > >Don acknowledged work by Robert and Kristen as well, and thanked the > > >preparers for helping on the production quality issues. Please help > > Eliot with his tweaking questions on the list as this new plugin gets > > tested. > > > > 8:55 Adjourn > > > > This event is one in a list of recurring events. > > Other event dates in this series: > > > > Tuesday, 13 January 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 20 January > > 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 27 January 2009, 08:00am to > > 09:00am PT Tuesday, 03 February 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, > 10 > > February 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 17 February 2009, > 08:00am > > to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 24 February 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT > Tuesday, > > 03 March 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 10 March 2009, 08:00am > to > > 09:00am PT Tuesday, 17 March 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 24 > > March 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 31 March 2009, 08:00am to > > 09:00am PT Tuesday, 07 April 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 14 > > April 2009, 08:00am to 09:00am PT Tuesday, 21 April 2009, 08:00am to > > 09:00am PT Tuesday, 28 April 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