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Subject: Re: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute


  Hi JoAnn,

Many thanks for raising this. It is vital for the correct processing of 
XML documents to have the correct xml:lang attribute value. This insures 
that the document is stateless regarding its language definition. In our 
XTM advanced CAT system we change the xml:lang attribute automatically 
as part of our translation workflow.

Best Regards,

AZ

On 04/08/2010 21:57, JoAnn Hackos wrote:
> When we automate the process of sending topics out for translation, we ask the translators to change the xml:lang attribute to the correct languages, which in the CMS environment enables the topics to be synchronized correctly with the source language topics. It's very important that the attribute be placed on every topic correctly.
>
> When topics are changed, we can are able to send only those topics for retranslation or, in some cases, only the individual strings that have been changed. All of these controls helps to reduce translation costs.
>
> The xml:lang attribute at the map level will not have the correct effect. The translators do not see the maps.
>
> JoAnn
>
> JoAnn Hackos PhD
> President
> Comtech Services, Inc.
> joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com
> Skype joannhackos
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Nevin (bnevin) [mailto:bnevin@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:09 AM
> To: Chris Nitchie; Su-Laine Yeo; Helfinstine, David; DITA TC
> Cc: Robert D Anderson
> Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
>
> If the value of xml:lang cascades to a topic that has no value set, then it would be mandatory (a strongly advised best practice?) for someone or something to set xml:lang on every topic to avoid problems. But if we expect every topic to have xml:lang set, then there's no reason to have xml:lang cascade. By that logic, it should be up to the processor to decide what assumptions are appropriate when xml:lang is not explicitly specified, and on what basis to make such assumptions.
>
> The descriptive/prescriptive dichotomy isn't apt. Any attribute value specifies something descriptively about the content, and any attribute value that isn't used for some kind of processing has no use case. The value of xml:lang is no exception.
>
> 	/B
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Chris Nitchie [mailto:cnitchie@ptc.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 8:50 PM
>> To: Su-Laine Yeo; Helfinstine, David; DITA TC
>> Cc: Robert D Anderson
>> Subject: Re: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
>>
>> I would think in such a situation, where you have to manage a
>> large number of languages, the only rational process is to
>> mark each piece of content with its language. The potential
>> for assigning the wrong language to a piece of content via
>> cascading, processor defaults, or any other mechanism is
>> higher in such cases than it is for the customer with only
>> one or two languages.
>>
>> If xml:lang cascaded from maps to topics when there's no
>> explicit xml:lang on the topic, you'd wind up with content in
>> the output marked with the wrong language via cascading, and
>> we would have to call that valid DITA processing even though
>> it's obviously incorrect. The xml:lang and other
>> locale-related attributes are different from other cascading
>> attributes because they are descriptive, not prescriptive;
>> they describe the content as it is, not metadata for how it
>> should be processed. Topics are in a language, and they're in
>> that language no matter what map references them, and no
>> matter whether they specify xml:lang or not. Allowing a map -
>> or anything else - to impose a language setting invites
>> outcomes that are simply wrong. I suspect, but can't say for
>> sure, that the language in the spec about processor defaults
>> is there because something has to establish a language
>> eventually, but it's not a very good substitute for assigning
>> language markers on your content.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> On 8/3/10 6:07 PM, "Su-Laine Yeo"
>> <su-laine.yeo@justsystems.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dave,
>>>
>>> For teams which publish primarily in one language, setting a "good"
>>> default for the processor or putting xml:lang in the
>> template is not a big burden.
>>> However, consider a team that publishes in a dozen locales.
>> That team
>>> needs to set the locale parameter for the processor up to a dozen
>>> times and get it right each time. You can automate builds to avoid
>>> having to set parameters over and over, but many adopters
>> do not have
>>> automated build processes, especially in the the early
>> stages of adoption.
>>> The question is whether processors should apply the xml:lang of the
>>> primary map *if that is the only place where xml:lang is
>> defined*. Why
>>> should the answer be no? I'm aware that changing the
>> xml:lang on a map
>>> or topic does not change the language of any other sub-topics or
>>> sub-maps. However I donıt see how that (obvious) fact is
>> relevant to this question.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Su-Laine
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Helfinstine, David [mailto:dhelfinstine@ptc.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:33 PM
>>> To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Cc: Robert D Anderson; Su-Laine Yeo
>>> Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> The xml:lang should be considered an attribute set in each
>> document.
>>> There are other language type attributes like @dir and
>> @translate that
>>> are also document attributes. They also do not cascade from
>> map to map
>>> or map to topic or topic to sub topic, etc. These might be
>> important
>>> when processing so it would not necessarily be xml:lang alone that
>>> would need to be considered. As has been mentioned, changing the
>>> xml:lang on a map or topic does not change the language of
>> any other sub-topics or sub-maps.
>>> The comments regarding setting the xml:lang in every
>> document can be
>>> overcome by setting a good processor default. If the
>> processor default
>>> in a French environment is ³fr² then it might be reasonable
>> that the
>>> processor default would be ³fr² unless a different xml:lang is
>>> encountered in a map or topic. If however one of the French
>> documents
>>> were put into a different language map then the processor default
>>> would probably be set to that language. The French author
>> would have
>>> to remember to put the xml:lang=²fr² in the French topic to
>> keep that
>>> from happening. Having the xml:lang=²fr² on the topic tag would
>>> alleviate the problem in the first place. For those users who use
>>> templates, it might be great to include in the template the
>> xml:lang already set to a decent default value. That way ­ no worries!
>>> Before the DITA 1.2 the cascading of attributes was not
>> defined. There
>>> was talk of inheritance in DITA 1.1 and there was the one
>> reference to
>>> xml:lang regarding topicref and the actual topic. But as a
>> whole this
>>> topic was not defined rather than DITA 1.2 being a change
>> to the way they behaved.
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> - Dave H.
>>>   
>>> Dave Helfinstine
>>> DHelfinstine@ptc.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Su-Laine Yeo [mailto:su-laine.yeo@justsystems.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:56 PM
>>> To: Robert D Anderson
>>> Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
>>>
>>> Thanks Robert.
>>>
>>> We've received some quite strongly-worded comments from DITA users
>>> that having to set xml:lang on every single topic file would be an
>>> enormous hassle. For the case of a mostly-French document
>> that pulls
>>> in one English topic, it is reasonable to ask users to set
>>> xml:lang="fr" once on the map, and xml:lang="en" once on
>> the English
>>> topic. However I don't see why we would also require users to set
>>> xml:lang="fr" on every French topic if they want those
>> topics to be processed in French.
>>> I see this as being a substantial change over the DITA 1.1
>> spec which
>>> adds work for users, and I can't see the practical benefit.
>>>
>>> Su-Laine
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Robert D Anderson [mailto:robander@us.ibm.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 12:33 PM
>>> To: Su-Laine Yeo
>>> Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Subject: Re: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
>>>
>>> Trying to remember the discussion of this - I believe that your
>>> reading of the 1.2 spec is correct.
>>>
>>> I think the idea was that the language is a property of the
>> document
>>> itself that travels with the document, and cannot be set or
>> reset from
>>> above. For example, if you have a map with all French
>> topics, but then
>>> reference an existing English topic somewhere else that
>> does not set
>>> xml:lang, the fact that you're referencing it from a French
>> map does
>>> not make the topic French. Following the spec's recommendation to
>>> ensure xml:lang is on the root element of every document
>> helps bypass
>>> this issue and any resulting confusion.
>>>
>>> Robert D Anderson
>>> IBM Authoring Tools Development
>>> Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>               "Su-Laine Yeo"
>>>               <su-laine.yeo@jus
>>>               tsystems.com>
>>              To
>>>                                         <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>>               08/03/2010 03:11
>>              cc
>>>               PM
>>>
>>         Subject
>>>                                         [dita] Cascading of xml:lang
>>>                                         attribute
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>> A bug report for the DITA Open Toolkit has raised some interesting
>>> discussion:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=725074&aid=3038532&g
>>> roup_id=
>>> 132728
>>>
>>>
>>> Users need to know if they need to set the xml:lang
>> attribute only in
>>> their primary map, or for every topic. Developers of
>> processors need
>>> to know if processors should look at the map when deciding
>> what locale
>>> to use when displaying topics.
>>>
>>>
>>> Say you have a<note>  element in a DITA topic that is
>> referenced by a
>>> DITA map. My reading of the DITA 1.1 spec is that language
>> should be
>>> determined as follows:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) Get xml:lang from the<note>  element. If xml:lang is not defined
>>> there, get it from the closest ancestor within the topic.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) If xml:lang not defined in an ancestor of<note>  within
>> the topic,
>>> get it from the<topicref>  in the map.
>>>
>>>
>>> 3) If xml:lang not defined in the<topicref>, get it from closest
>>> ancestor of the<topicref>  within the map.
>>>
>>>
>>> 4) If xml:lang is not defined in any ancestor of the
>> <topicref>  within
>>> the map, the processor should assume a default value.
>>>
>>>
>>> However, the draft DITA 1.2 spec contains the sentence ³The
>> @xml:lang
>>> value does not cascade from one map to another or from a map to a
>>> topic², which seems to imply that the language should be
>> determined as follows:
>>>
>>> 1) Get xml:lang from the<note>  element. If xml:lang is not defined
>>> there, get it from the closest ancestor within the topic.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) If xml:lang not defined in an ancestor of<note>  within
>> the topic,
>>> the processor should assume a default value.
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this the intention?
>>>
>>>
>>> Su-Laine
>>>
>>>
>>> Su-Laine Yeo
>>> Solutions Consultant
>>>
>>>
>>> JustSystems Canada, Inc.
>>> Office: 778-327-6356
>>> syeo@justsystems.com
>>>
>>>
>>> www.justsystems.com
>>>
>>>
>>> XMetaL Community Forums: http://forums.xmetal.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
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