Re: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute

[Andrzej Zydron <azydron@xml-intl.com>]

  Hi Doug,

In a proper production system this should be totally automated as part 
of the translation workflow. It should not reply on humans, who we know 
are inherently error prone and unreliable!

Best Regards,

AZ

On 05/08/2010 09:39, Doug Morrison wrote:
>  In my opinion the answer should be "No" because it encourages bad 
> practice. Let's say you create 200 or so files and rely on the setting 
> of xml:lang in 10 or so maps. Then you need to usethe same files with 
> different maps having a different setting for xml:lang. Now you 
> discover that you have to add the xml:lang setting in hundreds of 
> files. I would prefer to discover the bad practice after creating one 
> or two files rather than 200.
>
> Different users will prefer different defaults, so whatever choice is 
> made, it will not suit everybody - but I think 'erring' on the side of 
> encouraging good practice is the correct choice.
>
> Regards,
>
> Doug Morrison
> Information Architect
> http://dita4all.com
>
>
> On 03/08/2010 23:07, Su-Laine Yeo wrote:
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> For teams which publish primarily in one language, setting a "good" 
>> default for the processor or putting xml:lang in the template is not 
>> a big burden. However, consider a team that publishes in a dozen 
>> locales. That team needs to set the locale parameter for the 
>> processor up to a dozen times and get it right each time. You can 
>> automate builds to avoid having to set parameters over and over, but 
>> many adopters do not have automated build processes, especially in 
>> the the early stages of adoption.
>>
>> The question is whether processors should apply the xml:lang of the 
>> primary map *if that is the only place where xml:lang is defined*. 
>> Why should the answer be no? I'm aware that changing the xml:lang on 
>> a map or topic does not change the language of any other sub-topics 
>> or sub-maps. However I don’t see how that (obvious) fact is relevant 
>> to this question.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Su-Laine
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Helfinstine, David [mailto:dhelfinstine@ptc.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:33 PM
>> To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Cc: Robert D Anderson; Su-Laine Yeo
>> Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> The xml:lang should be considered an attribute set in each document. 
>> There are other language type attributes like @dir and @translate 
>> that are also document attributes. They also do not cascade from map 
>> to map or map to topic or topic to sub topic, etc. These might be 
>> important when processing so it would not necessarily be xml:lang 
>> alone that would need to be considered. As has been mentioned, 
>> changing the xml:lang on a map or topic does not change the language 
>> of any other sub-topics or sub-maps.
>>
>> The comments regarding setting the xml:lang in every document can be 
>> overcome by setting a good processor default. If the processor 
>> default in a French environment is “fr” then it might be reasonable 
>> that the processor default would be “fr” unless a different xml:lang 
>> is encountered in a map or topic. If however one of the French 
>> documents were put into a different language map then the processor 
>> default would probably be set to that language. The French author 
>> would have to remember to put the xml:lang=”fr” in the French topic 
>> to keep that from happening. Having the xml:lang=”fr” on the topic 
>> tag would alleviate the problem in the first place. For those users 
>> who use templates, it might be great to include in the template the 
>> xml:lang already set to a decent default value. That way – no worries!
>>
>> Before the DITA 1.2 the cascading of attributes was not defined. 
>> There was talk of inheritance in DITA 1.1 and there was the one 
>> reference to xml:lang regarding topicref and the actual topic. But as 
>> a whole this topic was not defined rather than DITA 1.2 being a 
>> change to the way they behaved.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> - Dave H.
>>   Dave Helfinstine
>> DHelfinstine@ptc.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Su-Laine Yeo [mailto:su-laine.yeo@justsystems.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:56 PM
>> To: Robert D Anderson
>> Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
>>
>> Thanks Robert.
>>
>> We've received some quite strongly-worded comments from DITA users 
>> that having to set xml:lang on every single topic file would be an 
>> enormous hassle. For the case of a mostly-French document that pulls 
>> in one English topic, it is reasonable to ask users to set 
>> xml:lang="fr" once on the map, and xml:lang="en" once on the English 
>> topic. However I don't see why we would also require users to set 
>> xml:lang="fr" on every French topic if they want those topics to be 
>> processed in French.
>>
>> I see this as being a substantial change over the DITA 1.1 spec which 
>> adds work for users, and I can't see the practical benefit.
>>
>> Su-Laine
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Robert D Anderson [mailto:robander@us.ibm.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 12:33 PM
>> To: Su-Laine Yeo
>> Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Subject: Re: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
>>
>> Trying to remember the discussion of this - I believe that your 
>> reading of
>> the 1.2 spec is correct.
>>
>> I think the idea was that the language is a property of the document 
>> itself
>> that travels with the document, and cannot be set or reset from 
>> above. For
>> example, if you have a map with all French topics, but then reference an
>> existing English topic somewhere else that does not set xml:lang, the 
>> fact
>> that you're referencing it from a French map does not make the topic
>> French. Following the spec's recommendation to ensure xml:lang is on the
>> root element of every document helps bypass this issue and any resulting
>> confusion.
>>
>> Robert D Anderson
>> IBM Authoring Tools Development
>> Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit
>>
>>
>>
>>               "Su-Laine Yeo"
>> <su-laine.yeo@jus
>>               
>> tsystems.com>                                               To
>> <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>               08/03/2010 
>> 03:11                                           cc
>>               PM
>>                                                                     
>> Subject
>>                                         [dita] Cascading of xml:lang
>>                                         attribute
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>>
>> A bug report for the DITA Open Toolkit has raised some interesting
>> discussion:
>>
>>
>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=725074&aid=3038532&group_id=132728 
>>
>>
>>
>> Users need to know if they need to set the xml:lang attribute only in 
>> their
>> primary map, or for every topic. Developers of processors need to 
>> know if
>> processors should look at the map when deciding what locale to use when
>> displaying topics.
>>
>>
>> Say you have a<note>  element in a DITA topic that is referenced by a 
>> DITA
>> map. My reading of the DITA 1.1 spec is that language should be 
>> determined
>> as follows:
>>
>>
>> 1) Get xml:lang from the<note>  element. If xml:lang is not defined 
>> there,
>> get it from the closest ancestor within the topic.
>>
>>
>> 2) If xml:lang not defined in an ancestor of<note>  within the topic, 
>> get
>> it from the<topicref>  in the map.
>>
>>
>> 3) If xml:lang not defined in the<topicref>, get it from closest 
>> ancestor
>> of the<topicref>  within the map.
>>
>>
>> 4) If xml:lang is not defined in any ancestor of the<topicref>  
>> within the
>> map, the processor should assume a default value.
>>
>>
>> However, the draft DITA 1.2 spec contains the sentence “The @xml:lang 
>> value
>> does not cascade from one map to another or from a map to a topic”, 
>> which
>> seems to imply that the language should be determined as follows:
>>
>>
>> 1) Get xml:lang from the<note>  element. If xml:lang is not defined 
>> there,
>> get it from the closest ancestor within the topic.
>>
>>
>> 2) If xml:lang not defined in an ancestor of<note>  within the topic, 
>> the
>> processor should assume a default value.
>>
>>
>> Is this the intention?
>>
>>
>> Su-Laine
>>
>>
>> Su-Laine Yeo
>> Solutions Consultant
>>
>>
>> JustSystems Canada, Inc.
>> Office: 778-327-6356
>> syeo@justsystems.com
>>
>>
>> www.justsystems.com
>>
>>
>> XMetaL Community Forums: http://forums.xmetal.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that
> generates this mail.  Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at:
> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php

-- 
email - azydron@xml-intl.com
smail - c/o Mr. A.Zydron
	PO Box 2167
         Gerrards Cross
         Bucks SL9 8XF
	United Kingdom
Mobile +(44) 7966 477 181
FAX    +(44) 1753 480 465
www - http://www.xml-intl.com

This message contains confidential information and is intended only for
the individual named.  If you are not the named addressee you may not
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.  Please notify the sender
immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and
delete this e-mail from your system.
E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive
late or incomplete, or contain viruses.  The sender therefore does not
accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this
message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission.  If verification
is required please request a hard-copy version. Unless explicitly stated
otherwise this message is provided for informational purposes only and
should not be construed as a solicitation or offer.


begin:vcard
fn;quoted-printable:Andrzej Zydro=C5=84
n;quoted-printable:Zydro=C5=84;Andrzej
email;internet:azydron@xml-intl.com
tel;work:+441494558106
tel;home:+441494532343
tel;cell:+447966477181
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
version:2.1
end:vcard