RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute

["Bruce Nevin (bnevin)" <bnevin@cisco.com>]

I've not been directly involved with this, but can't you send fragments smaller than a topic for translation if that's all that has changed? Or are other means used to identify just those parts that need the translator's attention? 

A topic may have different xml:lang values on different fragments in it. Quotations, citations, and legal requirements for bilingual environments come to mind.

	/B

> -----Original Message-----
> From: JoAnn Hackos [mailto:joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:57 PM
> To: Bruce Nevin (bnevin); Chris Nitchie; Su-Laine Yeo; 
> Helfinstine, David; DITA TC
> Cc: Robert D Anderson
> Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
> 
> When we automate the process of sending topics out for 
> translation, we ask the translators to change the xml:lang 
> attribute to the correct languages, which in the CMS 
> environment enables the topics to be synchronized correctly 
> with the source language topics. It's very important that the 
> attribute be placed on every topic correctly. 
> 
> When topics are changed, we can are able to send only those 
> topics for retranslation or, in some cases, only the 
> individual strings that have been changed. All of these 
> controls helps to reduce translation costs.
> 
> The xml:lang attribute at the map level will not have the 
> correct effect. The translators do not see the maps.
> 
> JoAnn
> 
> JoAnn Hackos PhD
> President
> Comtech Services, Inc.
> joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com
> Skype joannhackos
>  
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Nevin (bnevin) [mailto:bnevin@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:09 AM
> To: Chris Nitchie; Su-Laine Yeo; Helfinstine, David; DITA TC
> Cc: Robert D Anderson
> Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
> 
> If the value of xml:lang cascades to a topic that has no 
> value set, then it would be mandatory (a strongly advised 
> best practice?) for someone or something to set xml:lang on 
> every topic to avoid problems. But if we expect every topic 
> to have xml:lang set, then there's no reason to have xml:lang 
> cascade. By that logic, it should be up to the processor to 
> decide what assumptions are appropriate when xml:lang is not 
> explicitly specified, and on what basis to make such assumptions. 
> 
> The descriptive/prescriptive dichotomy isn't apt. Any 
> attribute value specifies something descriptively about the 
> content, and any attribute value that isn't used for some 
> kind of processing has no use case. The value of xml:lang is 
> no exception. 
> 
> 	/B
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chris Nitchie [mailto:cnitchie@ptc.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 8:50 PM
> > To: Su-Laine Yeo; Helfinstine, David; DITA TC
> > Cc: Robert D Anderson
> > Subject: Re: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
> > 
> > I would think in such a situation, where you have to manage a large 
> > number of languages, the only rational process is to mark 
> each piece 
> > of content with its language. The potential for assigning the wrong 
> > language to a piece of content via cascading, processor 
> defaults, or 
> > any other mechanism is higher in such cases than it is for the 
> > customer with only one or two languages.
> > 
> > If xml:lang cascaded from maps to topics when there's no explicit 
> > xml:lang on the topic, you'd wind up with content in the 
> output marked 
> > with the wrong language via cascading, and we would have to 
> call that 
> > valid DITA processing even though it's obviously incorrect. The 
> > xml:lang and other locale-related attributes are different 
> from other 
> > cascading attributes because they are descriptive, not 
> prescriptive; 
> > they describe the content as it is, not metadata for how it 
> should be 
> > processed. Topics are in a language, and they're in that 
> language no 
> > matter what map references them, and no matter whether they specify 
> > xml:lang or not. Allowing a map - or anything else - to impose a 
> > language setting invites outcomes that are simply wrong. I suspect, 
> > but can't say for sure, that the language in the spec about 
> processor 
> > defaults is there because something has to establish a language 
> > eventually, but it's not a very good substitute for 
> assigning language 
> > markers on your content.
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > On 8/3/10 6:07 PM, "Su-Laine Yeo" 
> > <su-laine.yeo@justsystems.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Dave,
> > > 
> > > For teams which publish primarily in one language, 
> setting a "good" 
> > > default for the processor or putting xml:lang in the
> > template is not a big burden.
> > > However, consider a team that publishes in a dozen locales. 
> > That team
> > > needs to set the locale parameter for the processor up to a dozen 
> > > times and get it right each time. You can automate builds 
> to avoid 
> > > having to set parameters over and over, but many adopters
> > do not have
> > > automated build processes, especially in the the early
> > stages of adoption.
> > > 
> > > The question is whether processors should apply the 
> xml:lang of the 
> > > primary map *if that is the only place where xml:lang is
> > defined*. Why
> > > should the answer be no? I'm aware that changing the
> > xml:lang on a map
> > > or topic does not change the language of any other sub-topics or 
> > > sub-maps. However I donıt see how that (obvious) fact is
> > relevant to this question.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Su-Laine
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Helfinstine, David [mailto:dhelfinstine@ptc.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:33 PM
> > > To: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Cc: Robert D Anderson; Su-Laine Yeo
> > > Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
> > > 
> > > Greetings,
> > > 
> > > The xml:lang should be considered an attribute set in each
> > document. 
> > > There are other language type attributes like @dir and
> > @translate that
> > > are also document attributes. They also do not cascade from
> > map to map
> > > or map to topic or topic to sub topic, etc. These might be
> > important
> > > when processing so it would not necessarily be xml:lang 
> alone that 
> > > would need to be considered. As has been mentioned, changing the 
> > > xml:lang on a map or topic does not change the language of
> > any other sub-topics or sub-maps.
> > > 
> > > The comments regarding setting the xml:lang in every
> > document can be
> > > overcome by setting a good processor default. If the
> > processor default
> > > in a French environment is ³fr² then it might be reasonable
> > that the
> > > processor default would be ³fr² unless a different xml:lang is 
> > > encountered in a map or topic. If however one of the French
> > documents
> > > were put into a different language map then the processor default 
> > > would probably be set to that language. The French author
> > would have
> > > to remember to put the xml:lang=²fr² in the French topic to
> > keep that
> > > from happening. Having the xml:lang=²fr² on the topic tag would 
> > > alleviate the problem in the first place. For those users who use 
> > > templates, it might be great to include in the template the
> > xml:lang already set to a decent default value. That way ­ 
> no worries!
> > > 
> > > Before the DITA 1.2 the cascading of attributes was not
> > defined. There
> > > was talk of inheritance in DITA 1.1 and there was the one
> > reference to
> > > xml:lang regarding topicref and the actual topic. But as a
> > whole this
> > > topic was not defined rather than DITA 1.2 being a change
> > to the way they behaved.
> > > 
> > > Thanks.
> > > 
> > > - Dave H.
> > >  
> > > Dave Helfinstine
> > > DHelfinstine@ptc.com
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Su-Laine Yeo [mailto:su-laine.yeo@justsystems.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:56 PM
> > > To: Robert D Anderson
> > > Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: RE: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
> > > 
> > > Thanks Robert. 
> > > 
> > > We've received some quite strongly-worded comments from 
> DITA users 
> > > that having to set xml:lang on every single topic file 
> would be an 
> > > enormous hassle. For the case of a mostly-French document
> > that pulls
> > > in one English topic, it is reasonable to ask users to set 
> > > xml:lang="fr" once on the map, and xml:lang="en" once on
> > the English
> > > topic. However I don't see why we would also require users to set 
> > > xml:lang="fr" on every French topic if they want those
> > topics to be processed in French.
> > > 
> > > I see this as being a substantial change over the DITA 1.1
> > spec which
> > > adds work for users, and I can't see the practical benefit.
> > > 
> > > Su-Laine
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Robert D Anderson [mailto:robander@us.ibm.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 12:33 PM
> > > To: Su-Laine Yeo
> > > Cc: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: Re: [dita] Cascading of xml:lang attribute
> > > 
> > > Trying to remember the discussion of this - I believe that your 
> > > reading of the 1.2 spec is correct.
> > > 
> > > I think the idea was that the language is a property of the
> > document
> > > itself that travels with the document, and cannot be set or
> > reset from
> > > above. For example, if you have a map with all French
> > topics, but then
> > > reference an existing English topic somewhere else that
> > does not set
> > > xml:lang, the fact that you're referencing it from a French
> > map does
> > > not make the topic French. Following the spec's recommendation to 
> > > ensure xml:lang is on the root element of every document
> > helps bypass
> > > this issue and any resulting confusion.
> > > 
> > > Robert D Anderson
> > > IBM Authoring Tools Development
> > > Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit
> > > 
> > > 
> > >                  
> > >              "Su-Laine Yeo"
> > >              <su-laine.yeo@jus
> > >              tsystems.com>                                  
> >             To
> > >                                        <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > >              08/03/2010 03:11                               
> >             cc
> > >              PM
> > >                                                             
> >        Subject
> > >                                        [dita] Cascading 
> of xml:lang
> > >                                        attribute
> > >                  
> > >                  
> > >                  
> > >                  
> > >                  
> > >                  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Hi everyone,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > A bug report for the DITA Open Toolkit has raised some interesting
> > > discussion:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=725074&aid=3038532&g
> > > roup_id=
> > > 132728
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Users need to know if they need to set the xml:lang
> > attribute only in
> > > their primary map, or for every topic. Developers of
> > processors need
> > > to know if processors should look at the map when deciding
> > what locale
> > > to use when displaying topics.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Say you have a <note> element in a DITA topic that is
> > referenced by a
> > > DITA map. My reading of the DITA 1.1 spec is that language
> > should be
> > > determined as follows:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 1) Get xml:lang from the <note> element. If xml:lang is 
> not defined 
> > > there, get it from the closest ancestor within the topic.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 2) If xml:lang not defined in an ancestor of <note> within
> > the topic,
> > > get it from the <topicref> in the map.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 3) If xml:lang not defined in the <topicref>, get it from closest 
> > > ancestor of the <topicref> within the map.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 4) If xml:lang is not defined in any ancestor of the
> > <topicref> within
> > > the map, the processor should assume a default value.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > However, the draft DITA 1.2 spec contains the sentence ³The
> > @xml:lang
> > > value does not cascade from one map to another or from a map to a 
> > > topic², which seems to imply that the language should be
> > determined as follows:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 1) Get xml:lang from the <note> element. If xml:lang is 
> not defined 
> > > there, get it from the closest ancestor within the topic.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 2) If xml:lang not defined in an ancestor of <note> within
> > the topic,
> > > the processor should assume a default value.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Is this the intention?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Su-Laine
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Su-Laine Yeo
> > > Solutions Consultant
> > > 
> > > 
> > > JustSystems Canada, Inc.
> > > Office: 778-327-6356
> > > syeo@justsystems.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > www.justsystems.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > XMetaL Community Forums: http://forums.xmetal.com/
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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