Re: [dita] With multimedia coming, what happens to the object element?

[Kristen James Eberlein <kris@eberleinconsulting.com>]

I am going to try and sort out the questions we need to consider:

1. Does the TC want to produce a DITA 1.3-related multimedia domain? What are the costs and benefits?
   
2. Does the TC want to redesign the multimedia domain to be based on DITA 2.0?
3. Does the TC want a redesigned multimedia domain to be use object as a specialization base, or should the elements be added to the base?
4. Does the TC want to update the object element for DITA 2.0?

Am I missing anything?

Best,
Kris

Kristen James Eberlein
Chair, OASIS DITA Technical Committee
Principal consultant, Eberlein Consulting
www.eberleinconsulting.com
+1 919 622-1501; kriseberlein (skype)

On 8/5/2019 2:06 PM, Robert D Anderson wrote:

Our current definition of the object element is a near-match for the object element as defined (15 years ago) in HTML.

Looking at the latest HTML5 recommendation, it looks like object has not changed much - it's added some attributes we might want to consider, but is otherwise about the same, with the same attributes / nested param elements. If we are changing object around, I think we'd probably just want to modify it so that it more closely matches the latest HTML5 version.

I don't think it really makes sense to add the audio/video attributes to object just to enable easier specialization of audio/video, unless those same attributes are also valid on the latest HTML5 object element. Otherwise we're overloading object with stuff that only makes sense for two specialized elements, at which point I'd be more inclined to treat them as base elements and let object do its own thing.

Robert D. Anderson
DITA-OT lead and Co-editor DITA 1.3 specification
Marketing Services Center

E-mail: robander@us.ibm.com 11501 BURNET RD,, TX, 78758-3400, AUSTIN, USA

Eliot Kimber ---08/05/2019 09:26:25 AM---I think keeping <object> in the base is a given. But for 2.0 it could make sense for <object> to mov

From: Eliot Kimber <ekimber@contrext.com>
To: Michael Priestley <mpriestl@ca.ibm.com>, Chris Nitchie <chris.nitchie@oberontech.com>
Cc: Alan Houser <arh@groupwellesley.com>, Carlos Evia <cevia@vt.edu>, "ligh >> dita-lightweight-dita@lists.oasis-open.org" <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>, Robert D Anderson <robander@us.ibm.com>
Date: 08/05/2019 09:26 AM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dita] With multimedia coming, what happens to the object element?

---

I think keeping <object> in the base is a given.

But for 2.0 it could make sense for <object> to move to attributes things that are attributes in HTML5 and are on subelements today. That would then allow <audio> and <video> to do the same but as proper specializations of <object>.

I've certainly had clients in the past who used <object> (or specializations of it) for things like custom browser plugins, back when that was a thing people did.

The Web world has definitely evolved to a place where audio and video are the primary embedded media types with other things being handled in the browser using JavasScript and canvas rather than plug-ins, so the need for <object> is definitely lower but it's still needed, as others have pointed out.

Cheers,

E.


--
Eliot Kimber
http://contrext.comÂ


ïOn 8/5/19, 9:15 AM, "Michael Priestley" <dita@lists.oasis-open.org on behalf of mpriestl@ca.ibm.com> wrote:

 ÂI think the first
 Âquestion is: do we keep object? If we don't then it forces a rebasing discussion,
 Âif we don't then it changes the question.
 Â
 ÂI think it does
 Âmake sense to keep object available in full DITA, just like it's still
 Âavailable in HTML5. It handles more cases than audio and video, and the
 Âdescription would need to be changed to reflect that.
 Â
 ÂIf we do keep
 Âobject then the question changes to: what is the value of making audio/video
 Âpeers rather than specializations? What are the specialization limitations
 Âwe're currently encountering, and are there other ways we could address
 Âthem, other than ditching object as a parent?
 Â
 ÂMichael Priestley, Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
 ÂTaxonomy Specialist, Marketing Analytics
 Âmpriestl@ca.ibm.com
 Â
 Â
 Â
 ÂFrom:
     Chris
 ÂNitchie <chris.nitchie@oberontech.com>
 ÂTo:
     Carlos
 ÂEvia <cevia@vt.edu>
 ÂCc:
     Robert
 ÂD Anderson <robander@us.ibm.com>, Alan Houser <arh@groupwellesley.com>,
 Â"ligh >> dita-lightweight-dita@lists.oasis-open.org" <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
 ÂDate:
     2019/08/04
 Â02:00 PM
 ÂSubject:
     [EXTERNAL]
 ÂRe: [dita] With multimedia coming, what happens to the object element?
 ÂSent
 Âby:    Â<dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
 Â________________________________________
 Â
 Â
 Â
 ÂIf we have no 1.3 domain, then LwDITA
 Âwill not be interoperable with DITA 1.3. If itâs different between 1.3
 Âand 2.0 itâll involve migration costs. The genesis of all this was the
 Âdesire to make LwDITA interoperable with official, TC-provided DITA 1.3.
 Â
 ÂBest,
 Â
 ÂChris
 Â
 ÂOn Aug 4, 2019, at 1:24 PM, Carlos Evia <cevia@vt.edu>
 Âwrote:
 Â
 ÂThis is an interesting and scary conversation.
 ÂScary particularly for me:
 ÂIf we redesign the multimedia domain
 Âto be 2.0 compatible and look more like HTML5 (with properties as attributes
 Âinstead of elements), the LwDITA committee note and my book on LwDITA will
 Âbe obsolete/inaccurate. However, I wonder if that is the right thing to
 Âdo if there isn't a real need for a 1.3-compatible multimedia domain.
 ÂSo... the question is: with the LwDITA
 Âspec not really being released months/years before 2.0, do we need a 1.3-compatible
 Âmultimedia domain to make LwDITA 1.3-compliant? Should we just aim for
 ÂLwDITA-2.0 congruence?
 ÂIf we need a small taskforce to explore
 Âwhat a new multimedia domain would look like if we don't need 1.3 compatibility,
 Âcount me in.
 Â
 ÂCarlos
 Â
 Â--
 ÂCarlos Evia, Ph.D.
 ÂAssociate Professor of Communication
 ÂVirginia Tech
 ÂBlacksburg, VA 24061-0112
 Â(540)200-8201
 Â
 Â
 Â
 ÂOn Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 7:55 PM Robert
 ÂD Anderson <robander@us.ibm.com>
 Âwrote:
 ÂThanks Alan.
 Â
 ÂAbout this:
 Â> I experienced whiplash
 Âwhen I learned that the review target was DITA 2.0, not the DITA 1.3 multimedia
 Âdomain that we had long planned. But if 2.0 is the target, ...
 Â
 ÂThe original goal for this markup was definitely a DITA 1.3 compatible
 Âdomain that would 1) be usable by LwDITA, and 2) carry forward more or
 Âless unchanged into DITA 2.0. LwDITA was the driver behind that -- having
 Âa 1.3 compatible domain is of course a nice thing to have, but the domain
 Âdesign was driven by the desire to have a LwDITA that is compatible with
 ÂDITA 1.3 and (ideally) DITA 2.0.
 Â
 ÂIf we make them base elements, then it's of course still possible to write
 Âa DITA 1.3 domain using the current model, but audio/video content marked
 Âup using that domain would need to be migrated before it could become DITA
 Â2.0.
 Â
 ÂAll of this is why I was a little hesitant to raise the idea...
 ÂRobert
 ÂD. Anderson
 ÂDITA-OT <https://dita-ot.org/Â>lead and Co-editor DITA 1.3 specification
 ÂMarketing Services Center________________________________________
 ÂE-mail:robander@us.ibm.com
 Â
 Â11501 BURNET RD,, TX, 78758-3400, AUSTIN, USA<15838691.gif>
 Â
 Â
 Â
 Â<graycol.gif>Alan
 ÂHouser ---08/02/2019 05:50:14 PM---Thanks, Robert ... good observations
 Âand comments. I experienced whiplash when I learned that the re
 Â
 ÂFrom: Alan Houser <arh@groupwellesley.com>
 ÂTo: dita@lists.oasis-open.org
 ÂDate: 08/02/2019 05:50 PM
 ÂSubject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dita] With
 Âmultimedia coming, what happens to the object element?
 ÂSent by: <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
 Â________________________________________
 Â
 Â
 Â
 ÂThanks, Robert ... good observations and comments.
 ÂI experienced whiplash when I learned
 Âthat the review target was DITA 2.0, not the DITA 1.3 multimedia domain
 Âthat we had long planned. But if 2.0 is the target, I don't believe we
 Âwould have designed the multimedia support in the way that we did. Using
 Âchild elements to specify properties makes the vocabulary much more verbose
 Âthan otherwise (9 element types instead of 2), and is especially awkward
 Âfor Lightweight DITA.
 ÂI like the idea of adding audio and video
 Âto the DITA 2.0 base. I would favor defining attributes to specify properties,
 Âas does HTML5.
 ÂWe can still release a DITA 1.3 multimedia
 Âdomain as currently designed, if it's the will of the TC to do so.
 ÂI'll note that this approach would have
 Âramifications for Lightweight DITA, which I have barely begun to think
 Âthrough.
 Â-Alan
 ÂOn 8/2/19 4:52 PM, Robert D Anderson
 Âwrote:
 ÂKeith had a fascinating comment in the
 Âmulti-media review that got me thinking - does the presence of audio and
 Âvideo supersede the need for the object element?
 Â
 ÂMy gut reaction was - maybe so, but only if we make audio/video part of
 Âthe base vocabulary (they can't be based on object and still mean object
 Âis unnecessary). But digging further, it's clear other uses are possible,
 Âso I don't think we can say the new elements supersede it. I've only used
 Âobjects for audio/video, but here's a good HTML5 example of using the element
 Âto embed a PDF: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/objectÂ
 Â
 ÂAt a minimum, Keith's comment points out that we need to clean up our reference
 Âtopic for <object> so that it no longer talks about audio/video.
 Â
 ÂBeyond that, this comment -- and other chatter on the list during the review
 Â-- has me wondering about how much simpler things would be if audio/video
 Âwere just base elements, rather than specializations of object. I know
 Âwhy we didn't consider that initially, and I probably risk the wrath of
 ÂKris or Chris in asking, but I wonder if at this point it's worth reconsidering?
 ÂIt would give us more flexibility in the definition to address some of
 Âthe review comments that have come in. The down side is that it would rule
 Âout a backwards-compatible domain that works with DITA 1.3 and DITA 2.0.
 ÂThat said, the currently-defined domain markup would have a simple migration
 Âpath into a DITA 2.0 model that uses base elements.
 Â
 ÂI don't want to go too far down that path without more discussion though...Robert
 ÂD. Anderson
 ÂDITA-OT <https://dita-ot.org/Â>lead and Co-editor DITA 1.3 specification
 ÂMarketing Services Center________________________________________
 ÂE-mail:robander@us.ibm.com
 Â
 Â11501 BURNET RD,, TX, 78758-3400, AUSTIN, USA<15838691.gif>
 Â
 Â
 Â--
 ÂAlan Houser
 ÂGroup Wellesley, Inc.
 ÂConsultant and Trainer, Technical Publishing
 Âarh on Twitter
 Â412-450-0532
 Â
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