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Subject: Groups - DITA TC Meeting Minutes 18 August 2020 uploaded

Submitter's message
1. Kris; will update proposal #257 Hardware domain and check it in.

Minutes of the OASIS DITA TC
Tuesday, 18 August 2020
Recorded by Hancy Harrison
link to agenda for this meeting:

Robert Anderson, Deb Bissantz, Stan Doherty, Kris Eberlein, Carlos Evia, Nancy Harrison, Scott Hudson, Gershon Joseph, Eliot Kimber, Zoe Lawson, Chris Nitchie, Keith Schengili-Roberts, Eric Sirois, Dawn Stevens, Frank Wegmann


1. Roll call
Regrets: Carsten Brennecke

2. Approve minutes from previous business meeting:
28 July 2020
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202008/msg00000.html (Harrison, 01 August 2020) - revised version
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202008/msg00001.html (Bissantz, 03 August 2020)
moved by Kris, 2nd Zoe, approved by TC

3. Announcements

4. Action items
[updates only; complete list is in agenda]
28 July 2020:
Kris: Examine content model for hardware domain elements; verify grammar file changes in proposal COMPLETED
Robert: Add item about correcting spec re query about keyref not defined for some software domain elements to appropriate Wiki page
- Kris; Robertwhat about your 28 July item?
- Robert; it's done.

5. Check-in: How are people doing in this difficult time? How is your state/country doing?
[general discussion; no official business]

6. Review of DITA 2.0 proposal deadlines

Stage two
(Eberlein) New multimedia elements for base (https://github.com/oasis-tcs/dita/issues/351)
(./) 18 August 2020: TC vote
- Kris; vote today, see item #7 below.

(Eberlein) New element for key text (https://github.com/oasis-tcs/dita/issues/345)
Updated 04 August 2020: Proposal to reviewers (Chris, Carsten)
- Kris; no progress so far

(Kimber) Deprecate or remove copy-to attribute (https://github.com/oasis-tcs/dita/issues/33)
(./) 08 October 2019: Initial discussion by TC
?: Revised version to TC
- Kris; any updates?
- Eliot; I plan to work on it this coming weekend, and hae something for next Tuesday.
- Kris; let us know if your day job will interfere, and if so, if someone else might be able to help.
- Eliot; I might be able to take Friday off; this contract ends at the end of August, and all code work is done, Now I'm just waiting for others...

Stage three
(Nitchie) Loosen attribute specialization rules (https://github.com/oasis-tcs/dita/issues/15)
(./) 26 May 2020: Early feedback from TC
(./) 05 July 2020: Early draft to reviewers (Anderson, Eberlein, Kimber)
- Kris; Chris, you're waiting for feedback from reviewers, including me, right?
- Robert; I had some thoughts on it, and sent some to you, but we both lost track. I need to put them together and send to everyone.
- Kris; I have a bunch of written down thoughts, and I need to send them.
- Chris; that's why I haven't sent it out for discussion.
- Kris; Eliot, might you be able to look at this?
- Eliot; I'm having a hard time finding Chris's mail...
- Kris; and we do only need 2 reviewers, so your participation is optional..
- Eliot; as I recall, I was happy with the proposal.

(Lawson) Remove machinery task and task requirements domain (https://github.com/oasis-tcs/dita/issues/350)
(./) 4 July 2020: Submit to reviewers (Kimber, Stevens)
(./) 28 July 2020: Initial TC discussion
(./) 18 August 2020: Vote by TC
[vote today, see agenda item #8a below.]

(Lawson) Hardware domain (https://github.com/oasis-tcs/dita/issues/257)
Reviewers: Bissantz, Brennecke
(./) 28 July 2020: Initial discussion by TC
(./) 18 August 2020: Continuing discussion by TC
?: TC vote
[discussion today, see agenda item #8b below.]

(Stevens) New diagnostic element for troubleshooting (https://github.com/oasis-tcs/dita/issues/316)
11 August 2020: Proposal to reviewers (Sirois, Harrison)
?: Initial discussion by TC
?: TC vote
- Kris; have reviewers seen a new update?
- Nancy; no.

(Anderson) Split syntaxdiagram from programming domain (https://github.com/oasis-tcs/dita/issues/361)
?: Proposal to reviewers (?)
?: Initial discussion by TC
?: Vote by TC
- Kris; did we get reviewers for this?
- Robert; no, we need them.
[Frank, Deb, & Chris volunteered]
- Kris; most of this proposal is verifying grammar file changes. Robert, can you give a ballpark of when it will go to reviewers?
- Robert; this week
- Kris; so a deadline of Monday?
- Robert; OK

Kris; Chris, I don't have your titlealt proposal on the list, becuawse it's gated by mine (#245), but I'll add it

7. DITA 2.0 stage two proposals
Issue #351: Add multimedia elements to base
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202007/msg00023.html (Eberlein, 28 July 2020)
moved by Kris, 2nd by Robert
Voting results:
yes votes: 14 (Robert Anderson, Deb Bissantz, Stan Doherty, Kris Eberlein, Carlos Evia, Nancy Harrison, Scott Hudson, Gershon Joseph, Eliot Kimber, Zoe Lawson, Chris Nitchie, Keith Schengili-Roberts, Eric Sirois, Frank Wegmann)
no votes: 0

8. DITA 2.0 stage three proposals
a. Vote
Remove machinery task
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202007/msg00019.html (Lawson, 28 July 2020)
moved by Zoe, 2nd by Gershon
Voting results:
yes votes: 14 (Robert Anderson, Deb Bissantz, Stan Doherty, Kris Eberlein, Carlos Evia, Nancy Harrison, Scott Hudson, Gershon Joseph, Eliot Kimber, Zoe Lawson, Chris Nitchie, Keith Schengili-Roberts, Eric Sirois, Frank Wegmann)
no votes: 0

b. Continuing discussion
Add hardware domain
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202007/msg00020.html (Lawson, 28 July 2020)
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202008/msg00009.html (Eberlein, 18 August 2020)
- Kris; I had an action item to verify grammar files; see 2nd link above; people didn't want hardware elements to get software domain elements, but the constraint is just too hard and not worth it.
- Gershon; does this set a precedent for having a broader element set than we'd ideally like? But OTOH, we already have those all over, so ... better just to leave things the way they are, and if anyone cares enough, they should constrain it themselves in their own doc shells.
- Kris; so, to content model, does my email reflect what we thought were the necessary child elements?
- Zoe; I think so; I haven't done a lot of work with content models, so yours look fine,
- Kris; I think we are at the point where we need to draw a line in the sand for content models.
- Eliot; only thing that occurs to me is if you'd like to include ph inside partno...
- Gershon; I agree, but I'm not convinced it's necessary.
- Eliot; ane we already have text in there...
- Keith; if we're including img, shouldn't we also have alt?
- Robert; alt is inside of img.
- Kris; wrt partno, we deliberately left ph out to minimize domain extensions out of it. We thought that keyword and text could be used to handle any conditional processing needed.
- Keith; partno is a data value that is the partno, right?
- Gershon; i'm fine with the partno not having ph.
- Kris; any other thoughts?
- Zoe; makes more sense now.
- Keith; I agree.
- Kris; I'll make changes to the stage 3 proposal and check it in.
- Zoe; thx to everyone for feedback and thoughts.
***ActionItem: Kris; will update proposal #257 Hardware domain and check it in.
- Nancy; do we want a vote next week?
- Kris; Robert, do we need another pass or can we vote next week?
- Robert; ok to vote next week.
[vote next week on this]

9. DITA then and now
How well do you think DITA has lived up to its early claims?
Has it addressed problems that it was designed to solve?
Have other problems emerged?
How is the landscape different now than it was in 2004?
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202008/msg00010.html (Eberlein, 18 August 2020)
- Eliot; landscape is different in that tool ecosystem is different, much deeper open source tools, as well as more mature commercial tools. But we have trouble getting folks to work on DITA-specific tools like DITA-OT. Back in 2005, IBM provided more resources, that's gone away and no one has stepped up.but other thingd are available.
- Kris; what is aailable now?
- Eliot; e.g. I can put together a Git-based project, using bitbucket, and have people collaborate., using free Oxygen. And more channels for getting into and out of DITA that before, and robust xml DBs. OTOH, we have things like Confluence, which makes our job harder.
- Gershon; right, I see lots of clients who want Confluence. One challenge is still a perception of complexity; companies who have been using DITA for years and still perceive a level of complexity, who are still not using it in a way to get full advantage from it. And the other issue is the set of vendors who have their own proprietary systems, and lock orgs into their solutions thru claiming DITA is too complex.
- Kris; you'r talking about things like Auther-it, Flare, Collego, etc?
- Dawn; we have a client that thinks DITA is too complex; made us do an analysis of Flare and Collego; they're scared of DITA, because they saw the ContentWranglers report, which has mixed messages.
- Carlos; right, some reports are designed to find issues, rather than find satisfaction, so that's what they find. Also, developers don't want to work in niche XML/XSLT to process content.
- Chris; wrt other tools, people often have the tools on their computer when they buy it, Word, HTML, _javascript_, etc. So that's what seems 'normal' and what they want to work with.
- Zoe; Lots of folks want a fancy Thanksgiving dinner, but just made out of their microwave ovens.
- Eliot; the issue of complexity isn't specific to DITA, it goes to XML and SGML before it. It's just that folks don't really understand the investment required, and what they'll get out of it. If you realize the value you get from an investment, you'll make the investment.
- Chris; right, things like Word and Flare, you sacrifice power for what seems to be simplicity.
- Zoe; really using DITA in a way that gets its power seems complex. I haven't used all of its advantages myself, and very few people apply DITA correctly. Converting to DITA without putting in the time to do the analysis, means you end up with junk, and that's how things get converted, because 'it's just doc.' People look at a whizbang website, but that takes a lot of effort; they want great stuff without work.
- Gershonl there's a discrepancy between having more tooling and less analysis.
- Nancy; also, compared to 2005, there are less technical writers, more 'automatically generated' doc, and that means worse docs.
- Stan; we see fairly familiar issues on adoptions. We don't have a shrinkwrapped prodect, and such products have an investment in user guides, best practices, marketing docs, etc. to compete in the marketplace. We're in the wrong place to respond, and some things we're not doing.
- Kris; of DITA's original claims, it was never one that it would be a shrinkwrapped product.
- Stan; either we're out of sync with what people want, or we can't compete.
- Gershon; some vendors give you an OOTB version of DITA.
- Chris; you can publish pretty good piece of DITA OOTB from Oxygen. The issue is that docs is a cost center, so companies are always trying to save money on them. so there's no willingnexx to invest, when there are cheap tools.
- Nancy; one big change in how much investment in doc staffing, though it never had much.
- Kris; let's use the list over the next week to expand on this topic; we haven't addressed items 1-3. let's keep this going on list and next week.

12 noon ET close

-- Ms. Nancy Harrison
Document Name: DITA TC Meeting Minutes 18 August 2020

No description provided.
Download Latest Revision
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Submitter: Ms. Nancy Harrison
Group: OASIS Darwin Information Typing Architecture (DITA) TC
Folder: Meeting Notes
Date submitted: 2020-08-19 17:01:37

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