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Subject: Groups - DITA TC Meeting Minutes 5 April 2022 uploaded
- From: Nancy Harrison<nharrison@infobridge-solutions.com>
- To: <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
- Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 05:16:21 +0000 (UTC)
Submitter's message
ActionItems:
1. Robert will respond to question about mapref on dita-comment and cc: dita-users.
2. Dawn, Carsten, and Kris will check on with clients and/or various vendors about use of passthrough tocken.
=================================================
Minutes of the OASIS DITA TC
Tuesday, 5 April 2022
Recorded by Hancy Harrison
link to agenda for this meeting:
https://wiki.OASIS-open.org/dita/PreviousAgendas
Attendance:
Robert Anderson, Carsten Brennecke, Stan Doherty, Kris Eberlein, Nancy Harrison, Scott Hudson, Gershon Joseph, Eliot Kimber, Zoe Lawson, Keith Schengili-Roberts, Eric Sirois, Dawn Stevens, Frank Wegmann, Jim Tivy
Business
========
1. Roll call
Regrets: none
2. Approve minutes from previous business meeting:
22 March 2022
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202203/msg00044.html (Harrison, 29 March 2022)
29 March 2022
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202203/msg00045.html (Harrison, 29 March 2022)
both sets moved by Kris, 2nd Zoe, approved by TC
3. Announcements
none
4. Action items
[no updates; see agenda for complete list]
5. Review of DITA 2.0 proposal deadlines
https://wiki.oasis-open.org/dita/DeadlinesDITA2.0
[no updates, but #647, classification domain removal, on agenda item #6 for vote]
- Kris; Robert, if you could give us dates for your new proposal on adding a new @, that would be good.
6. DITA 2.0 stage two proposals
Vote
Remove classification domain and add new element
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202203/msg00040.html (Eberlein, 29 March 2022)
Kris moved to advance this to stage 3, Dawn 2nd
Voting results:
yes votes: 12 (Robert Anderson, Carsten Brennecke, Stan Doherty, Kris Eberlein, Nancy Harrison, Scott Hudson, Gershon Joseph, Eliot Kimber, Zoe Lawson, Keith Schengili-Roberts, Eric Sirois, Dawn Stevens)
no votes: 0
- Kris; we need reviewers for stage 3 proposal.
[Gershon, Eliot will be reviewers.]
7. Continued: Feedback on dita-comment
mapref does not allow ditavalref (and can this be supported in DITA 2.0?)
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202203/msg00028.html (Chris Papademetrious, forwarded by Eberlein, 21 March 2022)
- Kris; I think we had clear discussion last week, but no wrapup; Zoe had questions on where to go to find info like this, and we need someone to respond on dita-comment.
- Zoe; I'm OK with why it doesn't work, but there's no place that it's explained; it shouldn't be in the spec, but it's something people may not understand.
- Kris; no easy answers for that, unless someone wants to write a book on DITA oddities, or TC wants to do a committee note.
- Nancy; should be put it on dita-users as well as responding on the comment?
- Kris; not a bad idea. volunteer to respond on both places?
- Robert; I guess I can do it.
***ActionItem: Robert will respond to this comment and cc dita-users.
[Kris will tag the response tag for this post on dita-users; will consider whether there's a tag for things like this.]
8. Usage of passthrough token in DITAVAL elements
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202203/msg00034.html (Anderson, 22 March 2022)
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202203/msg00035.html (Kimber, 22 March 2022)
- Robert; this came out of editing review; there was uncertainty around how to describe it; it's sort of like flagging, but not; who's really using this? We added it at same time as real-time filtering was added to eclipse. so, does anyone use this?
- Kris; is pass-thru filtering? or flagging? Eliot?
- Eliot; in context of web delivery, I can see having a _javascript_ that does filtering and/or flagging automatically, based on filtering/flagging values. but I don't know whether you really need specific support thru ditaval in DITA-OT, if I don't do filtering, then my process can do whatever it wants, based on conditional processing.
- Robert; a lot of things are in DITA tha we thought would be useful, but we don't know if anyone actually uses it. The real question is 'how do we explain it in the spec?' Pass-thru means when I generate HTML, I try to preserve that metadata in the HTML
- Eliot; the difference between explicitly preserve, and don't strip out this @.
- Robert; it depends heavily on our rendering processor
- Dawn; I'm pretty sure I have a couple of clients who do use this in carrying these @s into their final content.
- Kris; can you check about that? I wonder if Fluid Content does something with it? Zoomin definitely does not.
- Carsten; I'll check on SAP
***AIs: Dawn, carsten, Kris will check on this
- Kris; what about DITA-OT?
- Robert; I can't remember, don't know if special processing made it into the toolkit.
- Kris; any more thoughts? I don't want to remove it without getting feedback. We just need to figure out spec wording for it; it's not really either filtering or flagging.
- Eliot; it's deferring filtering/flagging to a later time, so it happens at delivery time rather than generation time.
- Kris; I like that description.
- Robert; so do I.
9. Examples and use cases for filtering and flagging
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202203/msg00032.html (Eberlein, 22 March 2022)
- Kris; got to this at tail end of last call. Dawn and Zoe gave good examples last week [see minutes] conkeyref is good for situation when 'info should go here, depending on context.'
- Scott; at Servicenow, we use @otherprops to show whether what content is for which release (e.g., for May but not April], which is different from filtering by product/feature, based on releaes sche4dule.
- Stan; we're doing prototypes of personalization; we know characteristics of users; the more you know about a customer, the more you can personalize data. We don't know exactly how to do it in a headless environment, but it's just a thought, something we're playing with.
- Kris; any more thoughts on this?
- Eliot; want to make clear the way DITA gives you multiple independent axes of conditions, unlike Frame, etc. which only gives one axis, so you need huge numbers of conditions.
- Zoe; I've seen some based on what components you're upgrading.
- Eliot; we only use @otherprops , but we should break it out into separate @s, conceptually or literally...
- Kris; I'm aware that we have a good chunk of examples about cond. processing, but I'm pretty sure they're not the ones we need to have; they were originally in langref topic for ditaval. Some were originally in conditional processing. they may not be the right one. I'd love to see brainstorms on list throwing out what examples you think would be good in the spec around filtering. I've got a pretty good idea about flagging.
- Zoe; I think a good one would be one doing groups of props.
- Kris; we have at least 2 examples on ditaval with groups; most don't use real-world use cases, they're more contrived to demonstrate facets of ditaval. Robert, any thoughts
- Robert; the examples in 1.3 really focus just on groups, none on basic ways of using filtering/flagging. We weren't updating when groups came along, so we put them in, but with contrived examples. If we don't get real-world examples, we'll just stick with the contrived ones; we won't be spending time to come up with real-world scenarios.
- Kris; if you can send mail to list of what you think should be in the examples, that would be great.
- Robert; what stood out when I looked at material was that we have a really complex one with groups, and that's it.
- Kris; if we come up with a list, then we can decide on scenarios, and get volunteers for drafting them. It takes time to draft examples. also, look at most recent spec draft; look at section 7.4.9, for examples of cond. processing; they're not what we need them to be.
10. Review N: Translation and localization
Opening of review: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202204/msg00004.html (Eberlein, 05 April 2022)
- Kris; the easiest way to get to most recent draft is to go thru the link; every time we put out a review, I regenerate the spec for reference. Please get in there and do review; it's only 4 pages, so small. We had single topics in 1.3 on @xml-lang and @dir; mostly because OASIS wanted sections numbered. We're trying to move away from sections; but didn't change the indexing; pls don't comment on the indexing in the review.
11. Processing default for @dir
https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/202204/msg00005.html (Eberlein, 05 April 2022)
- Kris; there's a draft-comment Robert added.
- Robert; issue is how we describe @dir; whether it has a default value, and if so, what it is. we say ltor is default. but we're trying to define it in terms of Unicode, and it's not the default there. so stating ltor is default is wrong; instead, it depends on what language you're processing.
- Gershon; agree that @dir should follow the language, there's no DITA default. And if you're doing multi-language, each language gets its own default, and there may be a document @dir. In MSWord, half the time it doesn't get it right. But calling it a 'procesor default' is the wrong word.
- Robert; this might be a spot where we use the word 'typically' processor will determine @dir based on language.
- Kris; we state in @xml-lang topic; 'if root map has no value for @xml-lang, processor should figure out value, based on language.' There should be a processor default if xml-lang isn't specified.
- Eliot; MSWord spec says there's none.
- Dawn; as you read the rest of what we have, wrt the recommended use of this, @xml-lang determines this unless the proceessor doesn't support @xml-lang, in which case this is what you use to get the direction.
- Gershon; right. direction should be derived from @xml-lang, unless processor can't do it. I've sometimes had to use @dir if processor didn't do the right thing based on @xml-lang.
- Kris; only place I've seen it used is in titles for bi-directional places, where English is embedded in a bi-di language. I don't know if proocessors have gotten more savvy about those things.....
- Frank; I would assume @dir would tell processor what direction if directions are non-standard; e.g Japanese ltor or columns rtol
- Kris; I think we should take it out, and I don't know if we need any examples for @dir; we never had them before. It's only needed with a small subset of situations, and the people who run into those know what to do for those situation. In editing, I removed 'user guide' info about bi-di algorithm, now we're just pointing them to outside standards like Unicode.
- Gershon; I agree, we should just point to standards.
- Nancy; I agree also; people who need to know this, mostly understand it, and there are better places to look.
Other:
- Kris; please look at review.
12 noon ET close
-- Ms. Nancy Harrison
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