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Subject: RE: [docbook-publishers] Re: [DocBook-publishers] Food for thought: Legal/Govt citations

"Which isn't much help.
Question then. If we proposed one, could you comment on ease of
transformation to 'your' markup?"

Not trying to be unhelpful - but I guess that if all publishers are
being asked the same question, and if this is one of the goals of
docbook for publishers, then that would be a legitimate request. I would
then have to talk to some people to find out how much I can say. I'll
start that process now, based on the assumption that the above caveats
are in place, and let you know the outcome.


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Pawson [mailto:dave.pawson@gmail.com] 
Sent: 07 November 2007 13:17
To: Hanratty, John (LNG-LON)
Cc: docbook-publishers@lists.sourceforge.net;
Subject: Re: [docbook-publishers] Re: [DocBook-publishers] Food for
thought: Legal/Govt citations

Hi John. Honest, no irony meant.

On 07/11/2007, Hanratty, John (LNG-LON) <john.hanratty@lexisnexis.co.uk>
> For print the markup requirements are minimal, usually involving some
> italics. For online, there is a huge amount of metadata captured
> citations. I'm not allowed to share samples as our citation markup

Which isn't much help.
Question then. If we proposed one, could you comment on
ease of transformation to 'your' markup?

> What I would say
> is that docbook needs a citation module if it doesn't already have
> forgive my ignorance, I've not actually used docbook in anger.

I have Bruce D'Arcus in mind. He's just done a bib module for

> Most legal publishers, I suspect, keep databases of known citations,
> and, I suspect, use pattern matching to add detailed citation markup
> enable cross-reference linking, also the automated compilation of
> of cites, tables of cases referred to, statutes referred to, etc.

OK, Can you then identify the key elements that would need to be
for LN? For a citation and a  database entry?

> on the citation pattern one can infer the issuing body (e.g. European
> Court of Justice (ECJ), European Court of Human Rights, House of
> Supreme Court, etc.

Is that in your system? I'd rather make it GP if we could?
I.e. include the referring body in the document?

Easy one, is there such a list in the public domain that we could mark
and refer to ?

The issuing authority is usually included in the
> metadata around the citation. The addition of all this metadata around
> citation is invariobly automated,

Which again can't be assumed John?

I know Bruce is heavily into RDF for this metadata.
Does anyone have v.strong feelings against using rdf for this case?
That way, we could let John have acres of markup, someone else
less fussy have a minimal amount?

> In terms of cases, there is the need to record when a judgment is
> overturned (goes from being "good law" to being "bad law") - remember
> that the UK has no written constitution, and therefore precedent is
> all-important. In the US searching for a case citation is called
> Shepardizing (see
> g.htm)

Question. Is this a citation, or an element in a chain of law cases?
I.e. you have a link from case a (good) through to case b (bad).
I.e. where does the information (metadata?) belong?

> The act or case name is not usually considered part of the citation.
> addition to publishers' proprietary citation systems there is the
> "official cite" or "neutral cite" included by the state in its
> report of the case/piece of legislation, etc. There is no legal
> publishing equivalent of CrossRef, the academic journals cross-citing
> service (a joint venture between publishers designed to increase
> revenues for all by enabling persistent links from one publisher's
> content to another's).
> Hope this helps.

Yes, but a plain text example would be (for me) more helpful?
Could you reasonably draw up a complex one and a simple one
without breaking confidences?


Dave Pawson

Registered in England - Company No. 02746621

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