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Subject: Re: DOCBOOK: XHTML tables


Jirka Kosek wrote:


> Yes RNG is cool, but tool support is very bad. Yes there are free
> validators, free converters from and to DTD and WXS, but no XML editors
> capable of RNG guided editing.


I did not suggest to switch to RNG for the main normative schema. I 
suggested to stick with DTD for now, nowing that it's quite limited, 
and, like every other schema in every other schema lang needs to be 
accompanied by specs. Schemas (be it DTD or RNG) alone can't ensure good 
authoring.


>>DTD is not very powerful; it always has to be combined with other means.
>>
> DTD has enough power to describe document based formats like DocBook or
> HTML. DocBook is there for 10 years and DTD was sufficent for its use.


Then it sure will be no problem to add XHTML tables to the DocBook DTD.


> No need for other means.


Alright! You were describing problems with the DTD schema lang, and I 
merely suggested alternatives.


>>And schemas never can save users from doing dumb things anyways.
>>
> But can restrict them.


Yes, this works well for most aspects.


>>>And creating two DocBooks -- one with HTML
>>>tables and second with CALS ones is also not good idea.
>>>
>>Probably ...
>>
> For sure. People are now confused that there is DocBook, Simlplified
> DocBook, WebSite, Slides, SGML/XML versions. In this situation you are
> proposing making this list two times longer?


No, and never did. Don't try too hard to misunderstand me. I request to 
add the XHTML table model to DocBook. I did not request to publish an 
additional, separate language.

Only if OASIS won't do that will users need to resort to workarounds 
such as extending the DTD themselves. (and they probably will)


> And these users are also familiar with HTML inline markup, with HTML
> lists markup and ... If someone wants to use HTML, he can use HTML. If
> some wants to use DocBook, he can use DocBook.


Many want to use Docook plus XHTML tables. Not very difficult to 
understand. Just as they want to use DocBook plus SVG (see the SVG 
Module [1] (also HTML Forms Module, MathML Module); would you tell them 
to use SVG instead of DocBook + SVG?

> But I don't see any
> positive effect in messing up DocBook with HTML markup.


AFAIK, CALS is very complex to write and process ("messy" in your 
terms), and has lots of presentational features, which don't belong in 
DocBook IMHO. Adding XHTML tables would make DocBook authoring and 
processing simpler; nothing messed up.


> If someone needs some capabilities of DocBook stylesheets (like
> chunking) and he wants to use HTML at the same time, he create something
> like HTMLBook. HTMLBook can contain elements like book, article and
> chapters which can have almost same content model as body element in
> HTML.


Now you are proposing to create a new language, which you rightfully 
argued is to be avoided.


>>And if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, you shouldn't call
>>the arguments of the other side "loud noise".
>>
> I wasn't talking about arguments but about idea of adding HTML tables to
> DocBook.


You wrote

"And as there will be more and more WYSIWYG editing tools even in 
open-source and free shops, there won't be such loud noise against CALS 
in favor of HTML. "

which clearly labels all arguments for HTML tables as "noise".

Many much-respected members of the XML and DocBook communities argued 
for inclusion of HTML tables in DocBook. (see quotes in the other posts)


>>Hoping requests for inclusion will go away (as you write above) is also
>>not a real strategy IMHO.
>>
> Well, this strategy works very well in a real world :-)


Both of you and me live in the real world.

Discussing the options, and listening to users and implementers is 
better than calling their arguments "noise", and doing nothing but 
hoping for this "noise" to stop.

Tobi

[1] tdg-en-html-2.0.7/tdg/en/html/appc.html#svg.module


-- 
http://www.pinkjuice.com/





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