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Subject: DocBook Technical Committee Meeting Minutes: 20 Aug 2003

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| DocBook Technical Committee Meeting Agenda: 20 Aug 2003
| =======================================================
| The DocBook Technical Committee met on Wednesday, 20 Aug 2003 at
| 05:00p EDT (02:00p PDT, 21:00GMT, 22:00BST, 23:00CEST, 06:00JST+,
| 02:30a India+) for 90 minutes.
| Agenda
| 1. Roll call

Jeff Beal
Steve Cogorno [:10-]
Paul Grosso [-:60]
Nancy Harrison [:06-]
Dick Hamilton
Scott Hudson
Michael Smith
Norman Walsh


Mark Johnson
Bob Stayton

| 2. Accepting the minutes[1] of the previous meeting

As amended by my note with the URI to the W3C entities.


| 3. Next meeting: 17 Sep 2003 (conflict for Norm)

Proposed: moved to September 24, 2003. 


| 4. Review of the agenda


| 5. Review of open action items
|     a. Norm to follow-up on RFE 562343: <packagename> element
|     b. Norm to write better documentation for option/optional
|     c. Norm to ask Denis Evans for his opinions on REF #686733, allow
|        bibliography under <refentry>
|     d. Norm to post a summary of the Task content models as described.
Overtaken by events
|     e. Norm to write some stylesheets to demonstrate annotations
|     f. Norm to respond to Bob's message on bibliographic inlines to
|        see if we can get some email discussion going.
Overtaken by events
|     g. Norm to describe how topical indexes might be created with
|        a custom stylesheet.
|     h. Norm to describe how the prototype works and how it was constructed.
|     i. Norm to begin putting it together DocBook V4.3
|     j. Mike to provide a better proposal for choicelist markup.
| 6. DocBook V4.3

No discussion about the beta.

Do we want to make this a CR, or give users another month?

Proposed: We'll wait a month to see if any issues surface.


| 7. DocBook V5.0 (RELAX NG)

Dick: wrt RELAX NG vs. XML Schema, are they interoperable?

Norm: No, they aren't. It's an open question about how we want to
      write the schema and to what extent our specific schema is
      interoperable (feature wise).

Keep on the agenda for next month.

| 8. Annotations [2]

Norm: Putting annotations in an element, so that for example, an annotation
      child of a para changes the way that para is processed.

Norm: There are also issues with respect to multiple annotations.

Mike: We could use an out-of-line element, making it a cross reference.

Norm: For the content, yes, but not for the element that is being annotated.

Norm: If the solution is to make it completely out-of-line, then we don't need
      any new markup at all.

ACTION: Mike to reconsider the annotation problem and post his thoughts.

| 9. Review of Requests for Enhancement

|       686733 allow bibliography under <refentry>

Dennis says "This sort of doesn't make sense to me. I feel that adding
an entire bibliography to a refentry is contrary to the concept of a
refentry being a short, concise chunk that documents a specific item."

Steve: I think lots of refentries are long and it makes sense to refer
to other resources.

Mike: The example from the refentry is for references to RFCs.

Norm: There are glosslists, we could add bibliolist instead.

Mike: I kind of like bibliolist.

Jeff: I can imagine having a glosslist in the middle but not a bibliolist.

Steve: We treat the bibliography as a special kind of chapter.

Nancy: I don't like the idea of any of these things in refentrys, so
I'm staying out of it.

Dick: Putting a whole bibliography does seem odd.

Norm: Does anyone oppose adding a bibliolist?

Sentiment that that if people need it...

ACTION: Norm to propose bibliolist.

|       752632 Color control of CALS table ELEMENT

Paul: I don't think it makes sense to add color control. And CALS is CALS.

Norm: The HTML model does allow this, so if you need this, use HTML instead of CALS.

Steve: We could reject it because we don't want to do presentation.

Paul: You can also do it with processing instructions.

Steve: Saying its someone elses model and we don't want to change it doesn't seem like
       a good reason.

Norm: We usually use alternate markup as an argument against change, and HTML
      tables provide alternate markup.

Steve: Yes, but going to the HTML model is a really big change.

Mike: But adding extensions is also a big change.

Steve: I don't think it's a good idea, but I'd suggest a remap attribute.

Reject: We've got attributes like role that could be used for this purpose,
        we've got PIs that could be used, and we have HTML tables if you
        can support them. There are lots of alternatives that don't involve
        changing a supported external standard.


- --- Norm raises an aside: what about caption

Norm describes the issue of "caption" in HTML tables and his move to
make caption mixed content to support it.

Proposed: this is the best solution to a complex problem so that's what we'll do.


- ---

|       755966 Add interpolate element

The submitter appears to misunderstand the meaning of continuation on numbered lists.

Proposed: reject.


|       780734 inline code

Norm: I usually use 'literal' for this purpose, but that's not really very semantic.

Steve: Why isn't literal good enough?

Mike: It's not very intuitive to new users.

Scott: And you could translate legacy HTML code more easily.

Jeff: I've always used literal to mean a literal value (like a string or boolean).

Norm: I wish we had some better markup for this.

Jeff: We don't really have a good way, for example, to markup an inline assignment
      statement. We have markup for the variable and the value and the operator,
      but not for the whole expression.

Steve: Literal is good enough, isn't it?

Steve: Markup up function names, for example, makes a lot of sense, but marking
       up the assignment doesn't seem to be very valuable. It's not as meaningful
       as the function name. Why is searching for stuff in <code> really better
       than <literal>?

Mike: This is partly an issue of timing. It's not ideal to give priority to the
      "old" elements.

Norm: I think Mike's right, we need to try to be objective about the inlines on
      their own merits.

Steve: I don't see any value, but if others do then we should just go
       ahead and do it.

Mike: How many instances of a single line of code in a paragraph do
      you really have? How often do you need it? But it's really a naming issue.

Norm: So this is really just about the name? If we had to choose, we'd choose "code"
      because it's more familiar to users.

Norm: The fact that it's a naming issue makes me feel like maybe we
      shouldn't do that.

Mike: Even on the rendering side, I can imagine wanting to render code examples
      differently than literals.

Straw poll: should we add <code>:

Jeff Beal       Y
Steve Cogorno   N
Paul Grosso     abstain
Nancy Harrison  Y
Dick Hamilton   N
Scott Hudson    Y
Michael Smith   Y
Norman Walsh    abstain

Norm: Would anyone object to adding code?


Proposal: Add a code element.


Steve: We need to be very careful about how these are explained.


|     To browse a specific RFE, enter the URL (on one line):
|       http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&;
|       group_id=21935&atid=384107&aid=XXXX
|       697374 marking up keycaps according to their semantics
|       740647 List or Table of Procedures.
|       742373 Splitting Segmented List
|       742624 refentry and bibliography
|       436067 splitting tech.char.class 
|       473365 Allow optional in funcprototype 
|       482818 Simplify ToC content model 
|       514435 Allow reference within refentry 
|       541444 caption in mediaobjectco 
|       558443 include storage info in metadata 
|       562343 <packagename> element 
|       565637 Associate non-inline image with link 
|       565716 URL and URN markup 
|       573419 Add bidirectional text overrides 
|       582822 VARARG and FUNCDEF together 
|       623524 (Re)Consider "choicelist" markup 
|       638456 RFE add a <translator> tag
|       655526 funcprototype enhancement
|       660044 Controlling line numbering in verbatims
|       679316 Allow orgname tag within paragraphs
|       686733 allow bibliography under <refentry>
|      The following RFEs are awaiting action items
|       413389 Enhance METHODNAME and VARNAME 
|       431411 RFE 70: add generic linking capability
|       522552 Add title attribute to <ulink> element
|       574880 Add annotation element 
|       613293 Generalize programlisting 
|       621564 New element Task and children
|      The following RFEs are identified as V6.0 or later
|       531851 Remove inline person name elements
|       532088 Remove RevHistory from qandaentry
|  ----
|  [1] http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/docbook/200307/msg00188.html
|  [2] http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/docbook-tc/200303/msg00001.html

                                        Be seeing you,

- -- 
Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>      | "Abstraction, abstraction and
http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/ | abstraction." This is the answer
Chair, DocBook Technical Committee | to the question, "What are the
                                   | three most important words in
                                   | programming?"--Paul Hudak
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