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Subject: Re: [dss] ANSI X9.95 and timestamping profile


Nick,

As I was not present in the last meeting (appologize for that)
I have not have the occassion of hearing about the rationale
behind the need of time-stamping a time-stamp and I am
not very sure of its need, but concerning to the
proposals made I would say that the first option suggested by Dimitri
would not require change in the structure of the time-stamp,
as it is only a new ds:Object to be added to the ds:Signature,
and it could even be profiled in a profile....
The second one would require, for instance, add an extension
mechanism to the dss:TSTInfo allowing any additional content that
could be profiled in a profile... but this would imply to change
the core with this new element

Juan Carlos.
Nick Pope wrote:

>Juan Carlos, Dimitri,
>
>I would prefer to avoid changing the TSTInfo structure just for this
>requirement.  It would be preferable to use an approach which can be handled
>using the existing extension mechanisms.
>
>Nick
>
>  
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Juan Carlos Cruellas [mailto:cruellas@ac.upc.edu]
>>Sent: 04 February 2005 09:00
>>To: Dimitri Andivahis
>>Cc: dss@lists.oasis-open.org; Nick Pope; Trevor Perrin
>>Subject: Re: [dss] ANSI X9.95 and timestamping profile
>>
>>
>>Dimitri,
>>
>>First of all a perhaps silly question...sorry if
>>it actually is...
>>Is there any rationale behind that advices to
>>just renew the time-stamp instead re-timestamping
>>the document or even generate a new time-stamp for
>>both depending on the context or is it
>>just a way of offering different alternatives to the
>>market and let it decide?.
>>
>>Just as an example, in XAdES for instance,
>>when we have to renew timestamps for signatures
>>long term archiving, we generate
>>a new timestamp that includes both certain
>>elements of the signature itself and previously generated
>>timestamps....
>>
>>Concerning the details on how to deal with the
>>technicalities in XML....
>>I have understood (but perhaps not correctly)
>>you propose two alternatives:
>>1. To add the old token as the second child. So that you
>>are sugesting to have a <ds:Signature> as the child of
>>the <ds:Signature>/<ds:Object> just generated....
>>So this would imply that each renewal of the time-stamp
>>would imply increase the level of depth at which you would
>>have ds:Signature corresponding to former time-stamps...
>>Have I correctly understood it?.
>>
>>2. To add the old token within the <dss:TSTInfo> so in the
>>end, the most recently token would be a <ds:Signature> with
>>a <dss:TSTInfo> that in its turn would have a <ds:Signature>
>>with another <dss:TSTInfo> with another <ds:Signature> and so on
>>
>>Well, certainly the alternative 1 somehow makes visible at the
>>level of the signature itself the details of the linking in time
>>between the token and those previously generated. The second
>>one just encloses these details within the <dss:TSTInfo>, and
>>the management of all the information of previous tokens would
>>be conceptually linked to the processing of <dss:TSTInfo>. I would
>>say that if we go on with this work, I would be more in favour of
>>this last one.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Juan Carlos.
>>
>>Dimitri Andivahis wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Trevor, Nick,
>>>
>>>This method can be used to assert integrity and time of existence
>>>of a document in long term archives, while at the same time
>>>it maintains a clear distinction between the document itself
>>>(possibly containing electronic signatures) and the collected
>>>timestamping information about it.  Renewing a timestamp token
>>>for a given document results in a newly generated timestamp
>>>token that takes the place of the previous timestamp token.
>>>
>>>This method has been included in ANSI X9.95, ISO/IEC 18014-2,
>>>and ISO/IEC 18014-3.  I expect it will be practiced by vendors who
>>>follow these standards.  It is general enough in scope that
>>>it could be applied to any type of timestamp token, and it can
>>>be used to support renewal of legacy tokens using XML timestamp tokens.
>>>If the types and processing rules for supporting the renewal method
>>>in XML timestamp tokens are defined with some care, it can allow
>>>for a mix of any XML timestamp token types in the "Russian doll
>>>      
>>>
>>structure".
>>    
>>
>>>There are different possible ways to implement this method within
>>>the DSS timestamping profile.  One possibility that agrees well
>>>with the protocols in ANSI X9.95 is to specify the previous token
>>>in a sign request via a new optional input such as RenewTimestamp:
>>>
>>><xs:element name="RenewTimestamp">
>>> <xs:complexType>
>>>   <xs:sequence>
>>>     <xs:element ref="dss:Timestamp">
>>>   <xs:sequence>
>>> </xs:complexType>
>>></xs:element>
>>>
>>>that carries the previous timestamp token.
>>>
>>>The service generating the renewal token need make no assertions
>>>about the validity of the previous token submitted to it.  The client
>>>must verify that the previous token matches the document(s) of interest,
>>>and the client should verify that the previous token is presently
>>>valid at the time of renewal.
>>>
>>>For XML processing rules for <ds:signature>, if this optional input
>>>is present, the service must include the previous token as
>>>the second child element of <ds:Signature>/<ds:Object> in the
>>>generated renewal token and cover it with the signature.  Currently,
>>><TstInfo> is the only specified child element of
>>>      
>>>
>><ds:Signature>/<ds:Object>.
>>    
>>
>>>[Alternatively, we could update the definition of the <TstInfo> type
>>>and add the previous token as a child element of <TstInfo>.
>>>This would keep all information about time values within <TstInfo>
>>>and would be more in line with the claim that the time value
>>>in the innermost token is the asserted value of existence.]
>>>
>>>For CMS processing rules, it would be best to let sub-profiles
>>>specify a solution that is appropriate for their needs.  For example,
>>>CMS services compatible with ANSI X9.95 may or may not require that
>>>the submitted previous token be an ANSI X9.95 compliant token,
>>>and they would place the previous token as an extension within
>>>the CMS TSTInfo structure of the newly generated renewal token.
>>>
>>>Services that do not support renewal requests would just return
>>>a NotSupported result code.
>>>
>>>For verify requests, the service need only verify the outer token
>>>and not deal with the inner previous token(s).  To completely verify
>>>a renewal token and assert the time value in the innermost
>>>      
>>>
>>(oldest) token,
>>    
>>
>>>the client must access each successive inner token and submit
>>>for each one a verify request that also specifies the time of issuance
>>>of its immediately enclosing token.  To that effect, the DSS
>>>      
>>>
>>timestamping
>>    
>>
>>>profile needs to allow the VerificationTime additional input in verify
>>>requests.
>>>
>>>Dimitri
>>>
>>>      
>>>
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>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
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>  
>



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