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Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services Evolution?


This is a long topic.

The premise behind WSDL - is all technology based.

When you use an editing tool - like VisualScript or XMLSpy,
you see that just from the XML point of view there's a lot
of repetitive cross information - that you keep entering - if
nothing else this is confusing - and this is the nature of
the beast - I heard someone describe it as a freight train
car - and any hobo is allowed to hop on and make their
own bed.

It's certainly a very different model and approach from
OASIS CPA - which is heavily business-centric in
many ways - and this is the disconnect.  People are
trying to use WSDL to described business
interactions and it was never designed for that.

WSDL is the way it is because of its original
requirements and use case design.  Its hard to
go back and retool that - and there is where this
sits.  The same thing applies to XSD too.  The
W3C is solving a different set of problems than
people are expecting to be able to solve.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <chris.hipson@bt.com>
To: <david@drrw.info>; <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>;
<ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>; <regrep@lists.oasis-open.org>;
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 4:12 AM
Subject: RE: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services

David Webber said

"from an unsustainable model - to wit - WSDL."

In what areas are WSDL unsustainable?  What improvements would be
required to 'make it work'?

Cheers Chris Hipson
Web Service Technology Consultant
-----Original Message-----
From: David RR Webber [mailto:david@drrw.info]
Sent: 24 March 2004 20:44
To: Chiusano Joseph; ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org;
regrep@lists.oasis-open.org; ebSOA
Subject: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services


You remind me of Nelson on the deck of the Victory at the
Battle of the Nile - "I see no ships!"  (looking with his
blind-eye through his telescope)....

Web services is not even close to being finished yet - and
a whole chunk of it is futilely recreating ebXML functionality,
but from an unsustainable model - to wit - WSDL.

Let's be clear here - Bob Sutor's decision was deterimental
to everything and driven by his own self-interest - and by
Microsoft and IBM thinking they could get there first.

Well they did not, and they have merely succeeded in
confusing the marketplace and adding much wasted time
to the whole process - including mine in typing this and
yours in reading it.  Customers would already be buying
consistent ebSOA were it not for their confusion caused
by web service FUD.

I'm throughly disinterested in the web service fraternity
continued efforts to re-write history and make like today
they have everything working better than ebXML.

First it was 'web services is simpler than ebXML - which
is too complicated".  Now its - 'web services are more
complete than ebXML - which is only limited and old'.

Fact is - ebXML is well suited to its mission profile and
therefore is coherent and consistent.  And like any
great technology - ebXML is evolving, maturing and
growing.  Web services are anything but - fragmented,
dispersed and subject to proprietary whims - so what
did web services learn from ebXML?  Frankly very little.

Cheers, DW.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>; <regrep@lists.oasis-open.org>; "ebSOA"
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:31 PM
Subject: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services Evolution?

> I'm in a bit of a "controversial" (tongue-in-cheek) mood today, so I
> thought I'd through this out and see what comes back. My thoughts are
> spurred by a book on that I am currently reading. Please note as you
> read this that I am in a position in which I am vendor neutral.
> 3 years ago, when the first phase of ebXML was getting ready to wind
> down, I was a mere observer on various listservs, so I don't have the
> perspective of someone who was in the throws of things. However, I've
> been thinking: Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services Evolution?
> More specifically: I understand that there was a "schism" of sorts at
> one point (exactly when I am not sure) in which several major vendors
> pulled out of ebXML. These vendors happen to be those that are
> considered to be the driving forces behind Web Services (by this I
> the "SOAP/WSDL/UDDI"). Web Services.
> I wonder - if this "schism" did not take place (assuming that it
> did), would Web Services have taken off as quickly as they did? Did
> "schism" give more motivation to these vendors to evolve the "base"
> Services standards as quickly as they were evolved? What if these
> vendors had not pulled out of ebXML? What would the landscape look
> now?
> Thoughts? Comments?
> Kind Regards,
> Joe Chiusano
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster
the OASIS TC), go to

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