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Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
I think that we may be a pack of pedantic creeps :-) I'm sure John is cursing us right now ;p Chiusano Joseph wrote: >Thanks John - that clears it up. ebMS v3, not ebXML v3. I now retract my >original observation. :) > >Kind Regards, >Joseph Chiusano >Booz Allen Hamilton >Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] >>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:01 AM >>To: Matthew MacKenzie >>Cc: Chiusano Joseph; David Webber (XML); Monica J. Martin; >>Duane Nickull; dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; >>jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; tony.scott@gm.com; >>john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; >>ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; >>golsen@contivo.com; John Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; >>tdean@criticaltech.net; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark >>Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin >> >>OK, I am now learning to be very specific. I am referring to ebMS v3. >> >>Matthew MacKenzie wrote: >> >> >>>John, >>> >>>Where did this vision come from? I didn't get the memo. >>> >>> >>Certainly, >> >> >>>the ebMS team has communicated and moved our work in that >>> >>> >>direction, >> >> >>>but I don't see other ebStandards explicitly moving toward >>> >>> >>that vision. >> >> >>>-matt >>> >>>Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Sounds great - where can I get more OASIS-official public >>>> >>>> >>information >> >> >>>>on this? And also on ebXML v2? This is highly useful and valuable >>>>information. >>>> >>>>Kind Regards, >>>>Joseph Chiusano >>>>Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] Sent: >>>>>Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:30 AM >>>>>To: David Webber (XML) >>>>>Cc: Chiusano Joseph; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull; >>>>>dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; >>>>>tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; >>>>>ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; >>>>> >>>>> >>golsen@contivo.com; John >> >> >>>>>Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; >>>>>ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark >>>>>Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin >>>>> >>>>>That would be the list, thanks David. >>>>>Joe, the ebMS v3 direction has been (and I think still is) to >>>>>encompass the WS-I Basic Profile, the WS-Security and other WS* >>>>>specs, thereby moving towards convergence. A curious >>>>> >>>>> >>point is that >> >> >>>>>we don't see that kind of outreach yet from the other side.... >>>>> >>>>>john >>>>> >>>>>David Webber (XML) wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>>That is exactly what we are qualifiying here in ebSOA!!! >>>>>> >>>>>>We have BPSS V2, ebMS V3, Registey V3 - but no updated >>>>>> >>>>>> >>architecture >> >> >>>>>>that documents the new capabilities that all this enables. >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks, DW >>>>>> >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> >>>>>>To: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica >>>>>> >>>>>> >>J. Martin" >> >> >>>>>><Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "David RR Webber" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>><david@drrw.info>; "Duane >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>; >>>>>><jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>; >>>>>><john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>><ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>; >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>><ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas" >>>>>><johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>; >>>>>><tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>"James Bryce Clark" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>><jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> >>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:29 AM >>>>>>Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>><Quote> >>>>>>a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is >>>>>>closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) </Quote> >>>>>> >>>>>>Can you please explain what "ebXML v3" is? >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>>Joe >>>>>> >>>>>>Joseph Chiusano >>>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>>Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] >>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:58 AM >>>>>>>To: Monica J. Martin; David RR Webber; Duane Nickull; >>>>>>>dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; >>>>>>>tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; >>>>>>>ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>golsen@contivo.com; John >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; >>>>>>>ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Thanks Monica and thanks to all for the warm welcome. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I have copied a number of folks on this, because I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>would like to >> >> >>>>>>>enlist their assistance for the ebSOA editing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>activities or >> >> >>>>>just for >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>ideas as we move forward. Also Jamie and Dale asked me about >>>>>>>addressing the ebXML-jc group. I had a good >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>conversation with Jamie >> >> >>>>>>>the other night, and got some direction from both him and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>from Duane. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>I would very much like to address the ebXML-jc, and get a >>>>>>>braindump how the two groups need to dovetail. I'll >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>plan on being >> >> >>>>>>>on the call next Wed if allowed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My primary vision for the ebSOA group is to move forward >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>with the work >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>from the charter (pattern catalog) and act as a facilitator >>>>>>>towards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>interoperability among the upcoming business process >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>frameworks (WS*, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>ebXML and SemWeb are three that are working to gain >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>dominance). The >> >> >>>>>>>request-response model is a very simplistic view that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>isn't >> >> >>>>>currently >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>mapping well onto the true complexity that large >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>industries have >> >> >>>>>>>developed in their shared business processes. For >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>example, >> >> >>>>>no one will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>argue today that inventory visibility for the automotive >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>industry is a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>request-response model between two partners. Healthcare >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>is another >> >> >>>>>>>area that is very complex, and requires multiple >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>interactions between >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>large numbers of process participants to complete the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>information >> >> >>>>>>>exchange, with forks and decisions during the execution. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The other reality is that process participants require constant >>>>>>>realtime feeds of information from many points in the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>process, which >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>are owned and offered by various companies of various >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>sizes and IT >> >> >>>>>>>capabilities. >>>>>>>This spells out, to me at least, the need for a network >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>operating >> >> >>>>>>>framework, where processes run in an "app fabric" >>>>>>>that is dependable and very open. Then we can layer event >>>>>>>causation techniques and other things like shared >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>industry process >> >> >>>>>>>B.A.M. on top. The network REALLY IS the computer.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>To accomplish this kind of integration, I believe that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>we need to: >> >> >>>>>>>a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>(ebXML v3 is >> >> >>>>>>>closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>b) gather and document, then publish and evangelize, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>real world use >> >> >>>>>>>cases that prove SOA principles using ebXML and WS and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>shine a light >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>on successful implementations >>>>>>> >>>>>>>c) include both WS* and ebXML patterns, along with SemWeb and >>>>>>>agent patterns (no rocks thrown, please - the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>SemWeb/Agent stuff >> >> >>>>>>>is the long-term target) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>d) work with WS-I and the specs to ensure that we have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>consistent >> >> >>>>>>>direction towards convergence >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My belief is that the entire IT industry is poised on the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>verge of a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>major break in what I think is so far a stagnation. The >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>potential of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>the internet is clear - and everyone is aware that it's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>potential is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>more than just human readable web pages. We all feel it, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>business has >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>been preparing (somewhat) for it, and the engineers all >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>want to build >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>However, this level of information integration won't >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>happen unless: >> >> >>>>>>>a) the path to implementation of standards based >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>messaging between >> >> >>>>>>>partner, or producer/consumer, applications, is very clear >>>>>>> >>>>>>>b) all players involved in complex processes can participate >>>>>>> >>>>>>>c) the integration effort doesn't involve such a long, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>drawn out >> >> >>>>>>>mapping effort everytime (this kills progress on the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>entire >> >> >>>>>movement) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>The industry will continue to stall until we solve some >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>of these >> >> >>>>>>>problems. I would like to help by completing the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>patterns and the >> >> >>>>>>>catalog of patterns, and publish the use cases to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>describe >> >> >>>>>it. There >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>also needs to be a major outreach effort to all industry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>groups that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>are building shared business processes (which by the way, look >>>>>>>much more complex than simple request-response models). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>That's it, I guess.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>John >>>>>>>313.930.5323 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Monica J. Martin wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>John, >>>>>>>>On a related point (to ebSOA that is), previously Matt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>MacKenzie was >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>the ebSOA representative to the ebXML-jc. Perhaps you >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>could provide >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>some insight into your overall vision of the ebSOA TC >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>based on its >> >> >>>>>>>>original charter. I've asked Jamie Clark to give an >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>update >> >> >>>>>on ebSOA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>and SOA TC efforts. In the past, it was anticipated that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>ebSOA would >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>assist in defining the next generation architecture >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>for >> >> >>>>>ebXML. Your >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>>>john c hardin >>>>>>>sanghainteractive.com >>>>>>>313.930.5323 cell >>>>>>>mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"The new electronic interdependence recreates the world >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>in >> >> >>>>>the image >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>of a global village." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>john c hardin >>>>>sanghainteractive.com >>>>>313.930.5323 cell >>>>>mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com >>>>> >>>>>"The new electronic interdependence recreates the world >>>>> >>>>> >>in the image >> >> >>>>>of a global village." >>>>> >>>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>~~~~~~~~~ >>john c hardin >>sanghainteractive.com >>313.930.5323 cell >>mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com >> >>"The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in >>the image of a global village." >> >> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 >> >> >> >> >>
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