Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin

["David Webber \(XML\)" <david@drrw.info>]

Joe,

It was only supposed to be a 90 day list -so I think we've all probably
been dropped!?!

"Recent" is a relative publishing term - when we've been working
this for 5+ years now!!

Cheers, DW


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
To: "David Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info>; "Matthew MacKenzie"
<mattm@adobe.com>
Cc: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica J. Martin"
<Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "Duane Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>;
<dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>; <jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>;
<tony.scott@gm.com>; <john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>;
<ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>; <ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John
Casillas" <johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>;
<tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; "James Bryce Clark"
<jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:20 AM
Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:17 AM
> To: Matthew MacKenzie; Chiusano Joseph
> Cc: john hardin; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull;
> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com;
> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org;
> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com;
> golsen@contivo.com; John Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net;
> tdean@criticaltech.net; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
>
> Matt,
>
> If I could finger-point anywhere - it would be the recent
> discussions over on the OASIS ebXML Adoption discussion list

Recent? The latest e-mail I have from that list is on Mon 1/17/2005 1:18
PM :) - that is, unless I was inadvertently dropped from it.

Kind Regards,
Joseph Chiusano
Booz Allen Hamilton
Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World

>
> - there's a whole raft of other related "to do"s hanging from
> that set of interchanges, and something of an expectation
> that has been set there - but not yet fulfilled.
>
> From the marketing-heads perspective - they always want to be
> able to put a box around the parts and sell it as a Vx.xx of Y.
>
> DW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew MacKenzie" <mattm@adobe.com>
> To: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> Cc: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "David Webber (XML)"
> <david@drrw.info>; "Monica J. Martin"
> <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "Duane Nickull"
> <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>;
> <jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>;
> <john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>;
> <ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>; <ronschuldt@msn.com>;
> <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas" <johnc@mbproject.org>;
> <mjyader@comcast.net>; <tdean@criticaltech.net>;
> <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; "James Bryce Clark"
> <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
>
>
> > John,
> >
> > Where did this vision come from?  I didn't get the memo.
> Certainly, the
> > ebMS team has communicated and moved our work in that
> direction, but I
> > don't see other ebStandards explicitly moving toward that vision.
> >
> > -matt
> >
> > Chiusano Joseph wrote:
> >
> > >Sounds great - where can I get more OASIS-official public
> information on
> > >this? And also on ebXML v2? This is highly useful and valuable
> > >information.
> > >
> > >Kind Regards,
> > >Joseph Chiusano
> > >Booz Allen Hamilton
> > >Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com]
> > >>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:30 AM
> > >>To: David Webber (XML)
> > >>Cc: Chiusano Joseph; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull;
> > >>dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com;
> > >>tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org;
> > >>ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com;
> > >>golsen@contivo.com; John Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net;
> > >>tdean@criticaltech.net; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James
> Bryce Clark
> > >>Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
> > >>
> > >>That would be the list, thanks David.
> > >>Joe, the ebMS v3 direction has been (and I think still is) to
> > >>encompass the WS-I Basic Profile, the WS-Security and other
> > >>WS* specs, thereby moving towards convergence. A curious
> > >>point is that we don't see that kind of outreach yet from the
> > >>other side....
> > >>
> > >>john
> > >>
> > >>David Webber (XML) wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Joe,
> > >>>
> > >>>That is exactly what we are qualifiying here in ebSOA!!!
> > >>>
> > >>>We have BPSS V2, ebMS V3, Registey V3 - but no updated
> architecture
> > >>>that documents the new capabilities that all this enables.
> > >>>
> > >>>Thanks, DW
> > >>>
> > >>>----- Original Message -----
> > >>>From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> > >>>To: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica
> J. Martin"
> > >>><Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "David RR Webber"
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >><david@drrw.info>; "Duane
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>;
> > >>><jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>;
> > >>><john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>;
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >><ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>;
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>><ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas"
> > >>><johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>;
> > >>><tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>;
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>"James Bryce Clark"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>><jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>
> > >>>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:29 AM
> > >>>Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>><Quote>
> > >>>a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is
> > >>>closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) </Quote>
> > >>>
> > >>>Can you please explain what "ebXML v3" is?
> > >>>
> > >>>Thanks,
> > >>>Joe
> > >>>
> > >>>Joseph Chiusano
> > >>>Booz Allen Hamilton
> > >>>Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>-----Original Message-----
> > >>>>From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com]
> > >>>>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:58 AM
> > >>>>To: Monica J. Martin; David RR Webber; Duane Nickull;
> > >>>>dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com;
> > >>>>tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org;
> > >>>>ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com;
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>golsen@contivo.com; John
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net;
> > >>>>ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark
> > >>>>Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Thanks Monica and thanks to all for the warm welcome.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>I have copied a number of folks on this, because I would like to
> > >>>>enlist their assistance for the ebSOA editing activities or
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>just for
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>ideas as we move forward. Also Jamie and Dale asked me about
> > >>>>addressing the ebXML-jc group. I had a good
> conversation with Jamie
> > >>>>the other night, and got some direction from both him and
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>from Duane.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>I would very much like to address the ebXML-jc, and get
> a braindump
> > >>>>how the two groups need to dovetail. I'll plan on being
> on the call
> > >>>>next Wed if allowed.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>My primary vision for the ebSOA group is to move forward
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>with the work
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>from the charter (pattern catalog) and act as a
> facilitator towards
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>interoperability among the upcoming business process
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>frameworks (WS*,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>ebXML and SemWeb are three that are working to gain
> dominance). The
> > >>>>request-response model is a very simplistic view that isn't
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>currently
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>mapping well onto the true complexity that large industries have
> > >>>>developed in their shared business processes. For example,
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>no one will
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>argue today that inventory visibility for the automotive
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>industry is a
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>request-response model between two partners. Healthcare
> is another
> > >>>>area that is very complex, and requires multiple
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>interactions between
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>large numbers of process participants to complete the
> information
> > >>>>exchange, with forks and decisions during the execution.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>The other reality is that process participants require constant
> > >>>>realtime feeds of information from many points in the
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>process, which
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>are owned and offered by various companies of various
> sizes and IT
> > >>>>capabilities.
> > >>>>This spells out, to me at least, the need for a network
> operating
> > >>>>framework, where processes run in an "app fabric"
> > >>>>that is dependable and very open. Then we can layer
> event causation
> > >>>>techniques and other things like shared industry
> process B.A.M. on
> > >>>>top. The network REALLY IS the computer....
> > >>>>
> > >>>>To accomplish this kind of integration, I believe that
> we need to:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is
> > >>>>closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>b) gather and document, then publish and evangelize,
> real world use
> > >>>>cases that prove SOA principles using ebXML and WS and
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>shine a light
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>on successful implementations
> > >>>>
> > >>>>c) include both WS* and ebXML patterns, along with
> SemWeb and agent
> > >>>>patterns (no rocks thrown, please - the SemWeb/Agent
> stuff is the
> > >>>>long-term target)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>d) work with WS-I and the specs to ensure that we have
> consistent
> > >>>>direction towards convergence
> > >>>>
> > >>>>My belief is that the entire IT industry is poised on the
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>verge of a
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>major break in what I think is so far a stagnation. The
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>potential of
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>the internet is clear - and everyone is aware that it's
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>potential is
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>more than just human readable web pages. We all feel it,
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>business has
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>been preparing (somewhat) for it, and the engineers all
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>want to build
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>However, this level of information integration won't
> happen unless:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>a) the path to implementation of standards based
> messaging between
> > >>>>partner, or producer/consumer, applications, is very clear
> > >>>>
> > >>>>b) all players involved in complex processes can participate
> > >>>>
> > >>>>c) the integration effort doesn't involve such a long, drawn out
> > >>>>mapping effort everytime (this kills progress on the entire
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>movement)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>The industry will continue to stall until we solve some of these
> > >>>>problems. I would like to help by completing the
> patterns and the
> > >>>>catalog of patterns, and publish the use cases to describe
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>it. There
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>also needs to be a major outreach effort to all industry
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>groups that
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>are building shared business processes (which by the
> way, look much
> > >>>>more complex than simple request-response models).
> > >>>>
> > >>>>That's it, I guess....
> > >>>>
> > >>>>John
> > >>>>313.930.5323
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Monica J. Martin wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>John,
> > >>>>>On a related point (to ebSOA that is), previously Matt
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>MacKenzie was
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>the ebSOA representative to the ebXML-jc.  Perhaps you
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>could provide
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>some insight into your overall vision of the ebSOA TC
> based on its
> > >>>>>original charter. I've asked Jamie Clark to give an update
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>on ebSOA
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>>and SOA TC efforts. In the past, it was anticipated that
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>ebSOA would
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>assist in defining the next generation architecture for
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>ebXML. Your
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>>thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>--
> > >>>>~~~~~~~~~
> > >>>>john c hardin
> > >>>>sanghainteractive.com
> > >>>>313.930.5323 cell
> > >>>>mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>"The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>the image
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>of a global village."
> > >>>>
> > >>>>    Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>--
> > >>~~~~~~~~~
> > >>john c hardin
> > >>sanghainteractive.com
> > >>313.930.5323 cell
> > >>mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com
> > >>
> > >>"The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in
> > >>the image of a global village."
> > >>
> > >>     Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>