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Subject: Re: [ebxml-bp] 12/7/2003: [Fwd: "Late Binding" of TimeToPerform]
Lars, You have put the finger on the weakest area of most message oriented protocols, the difference between Notice semantics and Business, Legal Semantics. Unless you deliver digital products through BPPS then what you have is a protocol that deliver Notices about events that are about to take place or has occured in the real world. Notices always comes after real world events and often the party that has the obligation to deliver also has an obligation to dispatch Notices before/after real world delivery event, often in resonable time. It difficult to accuratly define a business rule of delivery date using Notices, it become an approximation. What is the legal effect of making a service available to a buyer but not telling the buyer about it? When can you start to charge the buyer for service availability? All in all this why IMO Business Entities and business semantics such as REA is needed. Thats where the real world, contractual, economic events semantics and dependencies are defined. Ontop of this you superimpse Business Dialogs and Notice semantics. /anders Lars.Abrell@teliasonera.com wrote: >Monica Martin wrote: > > > >>As for the needs you cite, Anders made an important distinction if you are >>redirecting the business process or changing the product delivery date >>that is specified in a business document. The next question is if that >>delivery date changes does it redirect/augment the business process, and >>does the business agreement allow for that. Perhaps we should address >>this more fully in Monday's meeting. >> >> > >Just to clarify the use case. >The "change" in the product delivery data is no actual *change* of the delivery date for the same instance of a product. >It is more like different delivery dates for different products or services ordered in different conversations using the same Binary Collaboration. > >For example in a conversation #1 we order a product A from supplier X with a delivery date 6 weeks from now. It's OK for us if the order response telling us that the supplier can execute this order is sent to us after, let say, one week. I.e. the value in timeToPerform for this simple BC should be P7D. > >In another conversation #2 (instantiated from the same BC) we order a service B that needs to be carried out by the same supplier X within 4 hours. In this conversation we need to receive an order response telling us if the supplier is able to carry out the order or not within, let say, 10 minutes. Otherwise we might need to engage another supplier. I.e this time the value in timeToPerform for this same simple BC should be PT10M. > >What I am looking for is the best way of informing our trading partner (supplier X) and his BSI of the value that should be used in the timeToPerform attribute for each conversation. One way might be to use the SBDH. Another way could have been using the ebMS message header if the ebMS spec had provided us with for example a "timeout" attribute in the ConversationID element. > >It would be nice if one were able to specify a time range for the timeToPerform attribute in the CPPA spec that the trading partners could agree upon should be explicitly specified in runtime. I also think that if a trading partner is disagreeing with the value given in runtime to the timeToPerform attribute and not able not give a substantive response before the expiration of the time specified it would be appropriate for him to send an exception signal instead. > >* Lars.Abrell@TeliaSonera.com * +46 (0) 705 619080 >* Kilsgatan 4, Box 299, SE-401 24 Gothenburg, Sweden > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Monica J. Martin [mailto:Monica.Martin@Sun.COM] >Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 11:22 PM >To: Abrell, Lars E. /TSS - Networks and Production /031-770 90 80, >0705-61 90 80 >Cc: ebxml-bp@lists.oasis-open.org >Subject: Re: [ebxml-bp] 12/7/2003: [Fwd: "Late Binding" of >TimeToPerform] > > >See comments between ****....****. > > > >>Abrell2: It is of course possible to create multiple separate Binary Collaborations that differs only in the timeToPerform value and where the process flow it self is exactly the same. First, IMHO I don't think the timeToPerform value is always an equally "important" business rule to be agreed to and pre-known and determined in the same way as the process flow it self is. I also believe that this approach could end of with to many Binary Collaborations to handle when you actually only need one. >> >>Second, during the Christmas holidays I have read the "UN/CEFACT - Standard Business Document Header Technical Specification Revision 2.1" (http://webster.disa.org/cefact-groups/atg/downloads/index.cfm/). It seems to me as if this specification specifies the things that I sometimes think needs to be communicated between trading partners at runtime. I believe this Standard Business Document Header to some degree overlaps the ebMS spec and especially the ConversationId, Service, Action and CPAId elements, but at the same time provide me with most (if not all) of the additional information elements I have been missing. >> >>The Standard Business Document Header has a "block" called "BusinessScope" that in turn contains a "Service Information" block and a "CorralationInformation" block. This "CorralationInformation" block contains an element called "ExpectedResponseDateTime" that could be communicated at runtime between the trading partners and seems to give me what I have been looking for. See below. >> >><BusinessScope> >> <Scope> >> <Type>BusinessProcess</Type> >> ... >> <CorrelationInformation> >> ... >> <ExpectedResponseDateTime>2003-05-10T00:31:52Z</ExpectedResponseDateTime> >> ... >> </CorrelationInformation> >> </Scope> >></BusinessScope> >> >>The idea and theory around BusinessScope (see appendix 3) look also very interesting. >> >>But I'm somewhat confused about when it's best to communicate the other BusinessScope kind of information in a Standard Business Document Header and when to use the elements provided by ebMS. >> >> >> >> >****mm2: The SBDH is primarily used to enable enterprise applications >and legacy systems to be able to access metadata to compile the business >document. That is why the BusinessScope is important. There has been >quite a bit of discussion about how this works or overlaps with ebMS, >and if the SBDH is actually sent with the business document in a payload >over the wire to enable parser and translator processing. As for the >needs you cite, Anders made an important distinction if you are >redirecting the business process or changing the product delivery date >that is specified in a business document. The next question is if that >delivery date changes does it redirect/augment the business process, and >does the business agreement allow for that. Perhaps we should address >this more fully in Monday's meeting. > >Dale, could you officiate? Thanks.**** > > > >>Kulvantunyou: I am not sure if I understand the whole complexity of the issue or not. >>I preferred the BPSS being declarative at design time of business rule b/c >>1) business rules are captured declaratively and 2) it supports the advance >>dynamic binding b/w partners. So my thought for the use case described by >>Lars is to create multiple Binary Collaborations with different >>timeToPerform's for both BC and BTA for different classes of >>products/services rather than overriding at the runtime. >> >>I'm not sure whether the BPSS (I mean specifically BC) is supposed to be >>context specific or context indenpendent according to the Architecture. My >>thought is that it is context specific. >> >>Abrell: I have compiled a short summary proposal for Work Item 55 about the late >>binding of the timeToPerform attribute. This is my very first proposal and >>I'm not sure if this is sufficient, but I hope so. There are still several >>implications and other things that needs to be worked out, and it would be >>very interesting also to listen to other opinions. >> >>mm1: Lars, after reviewing the slides, the note and thinking about the learning >>session and teleconference discussions, there are several items that we >>should perhaps address, and talk about in the context of BPSS: >> >> * Late binding on the BPSS >> o Specifying the timeToPerform to the greatest time possible in >>the context of this type of collaboration [1] >> + Allowing late binding to accommodate logical business >>document requirements >> + Specifying when the late binding may occ >> * Potential to override BPSS attributes in the CPP/A between the parties >>[2] [3] >> * Breaking the response into multiple responses: where more timing >>applies to specific requirements (such as delivery) >>or either from the perspective of the requestor or the responder [4] >> >>I encourage the team to think about these items in the context of >>roles/partners, timeToPerform, and the dynamic aspects of late binding >>we discussed last week. [5] >> >>[1] May likely not be as tight you would like given the interactions defined >>by internal systems to support. Which brings up an interesting point on >>being able to keep these systems loosely coupled. For example, we have one >>case where the order may go by alternate means and not logged in the B2B >>system, and this really complicates this company's processing. We have to >>account for that at the process level. >>[1] Determine if this could meet your needs: See Section 9 of CPP/A >>document. >>[3] May complement any late binding functionality if adopted. >>[4] This may be driven either by business or service level agreements, or on >>a case by case basis. For the latter, I would think we will have to discuss >>the per-instance impact and its appropriateness. >>[5] Related Work Items 23, 25, 28, 46 and 55. >> >>-------- Original Message -------- >>Subject: "Late Binding" of TimeToPerform >>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 03:21:23 +0100 >>From: Lars.Abrell@teliasonera.com >>To: Monica.Martin@Sun.COM >> >> >> >>Monica, >>During our use of BPSS we have in different situations noticed a need for >>different values in the TimeToPerform attribute for the same Binary >>Collaboration. This specific use case is based on the BC:NegotiateOrder in >>the NeBI specification (www.nebi.biz). Please see the attached slides. This >>very simple use case for ordering different "Field Service Products" in the >>telecom industry is based on using only the BTA:OrderRequestByBuyer and the >>BTA:OrderAcknowledgmentBySupplier in the BC:NegotiateOrder. This simple >>version of the BC:NegotiateOrder is used for ordering different products >>using the same generic BusinessDocument (BD:Order). In the product specific >>part of this BD:Order (i.e, in the order rows) the different "Field Service >>Products" are specified. Depending on the different "Field Service Products" >>(or combinations of "Field Service Products") in a BD:Order or different >>"time to delivery" of the specified product, there is a need also to have >>different values in the TimeToPerform attribute of the BC:NegotiateOrder. >> >>Feel free to use this in any way you think is appropriate >> >><<TimeToPerform.ppt>> >>Regards //Lars >>Lars Abrell, TeliaSonera >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > -- ///////////////////////////////////// / Business Collaboration Toolsmiths / / website: <www.toolsmiths.se> / / email: <anderst@toolsmiths.se> / / phone: +46 8 545 885 87 / / mobile: +46 70 546 66 03 / /////////////////////////////////////
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