Re: [ebxml-bp] RE: ebBP / BPMN extensions

[David RR Webber <david@drrw.info>]

Patrick,

I too did not follow this.  BPSS and BPEL are like night and day.

However - it is possible to have a WSDL pointing to a BPEL as a node in a BPSS
diagram.  This we can already support - we do not need to use BPMN to do this
with.

However - folks like IBM already have BPMN in their products - so I guess there
may be some thinking that if a modified BPMN can support BPSS generation for
people like that - then there may also be some linkage for whatever those
vendors are also doing with BPEL.

This would allow modellers to use BPMN that their are familiar with - and the
tool to provide access to BPSS or BPEL based implementation architectures.

I'd prefer to focus on BPMN and BPSS foremost - and not get sidetracked into
BPEL - they have enough problems of their own without us worrying about them!

So - our goal should be to provide people trained and familiar with BPMN - with
the means to easily now also generate BPSS using a metaphor that is close to
what they are already comfortable with.

Thanks, DW.

Quoting Patrick Yee <kcyee@cecid.hku.hk>:

> 
> 
> > I am a bit confused here. My impression on BPMN is that it's basically 
> > a graphical notation. Given this, when we say we can merge BPSS and 
> > BPEL using BPMN, does it mean only that we can merge them onto a same 
> > picture? Technically, I guess WSDL will be the guy to link BPSS and 
> > BPEL up. Am I on the right track? Please comment.
> > Regards, -Patrick
> >
> >
> > Dale Moberg wrote:
> >
> >> I have one initial question.
> >>  
> >> It seems to me that BPMN could effectively merge a BPSS with a BPEL 
> >> (or a choregraphy with an orchestration) because it can cover both 
> >> aspects.
> >>  
> >> Might this not be a way to connect BPSS or WS-CDL with BPEL for the 
> >> purposes of a unified display? That way the XML instances could still
> >> be used separately for different tasks, and we wouldn't have to worry 
> >> about how to annotate BPSS with BPEL bits to cover orchestration?
> >>  
> >>  
> >> Dale
> >>  
> >> PS:
> >> I  also need to find a good pointer back to a summary on the BPMN 
> >> graphical constructs because some ot the arrows seem funny...
> >>  
> >> Are the arrow heads just links or do they indicate flow or both?
> >>  
> >> Is the clock a timer, indicates a possible delay, or ??
> >>  
> >> Looks promising at a high level though.
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >>  
> >>
> >>     -----Original Message-----
> >>     *From:* Jean-Jacques Dubray [mailto:jeanjadu@Attachmate.com]
> >>     *Sent:* Sunday, August 22, 2004 11:06 PM
> >>     *To:* Monica Martin; Dale Moberg
> >>     *Cc:* Stephen A White; ebXML BP
> >>     *Subject:* ebBP / BPMN extensions
> >>
> >>     This is my proposal for a few extensions to BPMN to be able to
> >>     represent the choreography of collaborations. Here is an example
> >>     (Process PO collaboration).
> >>
> >>     
> >>     
> >>     
> >>     The double line activity represent a business transaction (we may
> >>     want to use special symbols or lining scheme for indicating the
> >>     need for or lack of signals)
> >>
> >>     
> >>     The dashed line represent the direction (initiating to responder),
> >>     the response flow is not indicating. When two flows cross the
> >>     activity (e.g. Cancel) it means that both parties can initiate
> >>     that transaction.
> >>
> >>     
> >>     Optionally, we can represent the message flow (PO / Ack PO).
> >>
> >>     
> >>     The little circle on each side of the BTA represent an endpoint.
> >>     The private process connects to these end points (not fully
> >>     represented here).
> >>
> >>     
> >>     I had to create a new gateway which acts as both a fork and a
> >>     join. This means that change PO and Cancel PO can happen as many
> >>     times as we need to, until a time out occurs. Note that the
> >>     semantic of a fork gateway in a collaboration means that the BTA
> >>     is enabled, not that it is necessarily executed.
> >>
> >>     
> >>     It is start is agreeable, I will do a complete analysis of what
> >>     maps and does not map to a collaboration.
> >>
> >>     
> >>     Thanks,
> >>
> >>     
> >>     JJ-
> >>
> >>     
> >>     
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 


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