RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr

[Stefano POGLIANI <stefano.pogliani@sun.com>]

Marty,

	I agree with this explanation. I thought mine was not very
different from this one.
My take was that WSDL is not enough by itself; if we complete it
with WSEL/WSFL, then I see the equivalence.

I do not understrand the following sentence, though:

» So, an ebXML BSI configured out of
» a CPP plus Process-Specification document (the BPSS instance document)
» reflects an interface including both the equivalent of the WSDL
» abstraction and the concrete endpoint properties described in the CPP.

Is the last "CPP" reference what you meant?

Thanks a lot for the comment!

/stefano

» -----Original Message-----
» From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com]
» Sent: 27 June 2001 20:18
» To: Stefano POGLIANI
» Cc: Welsh, David; ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
»
»
»
» Stefano,
»
» While I agree with most of your comments, I would like to offer a somewhat
» different view of these matters.
»
» WSDL does not overlap the CPP/CPA at all.  Indeed, WSDL, as you say,  is a
» way in which a Web Service advertises the way it can be accessed.  In the
» ebXML world, this advertisement is effectively part of the BPSS instance
» document that is referenced by the CPP and CPA.  More precisely, the
» combination of WSFL and WSDL is architecturally equivalent to the BPSS
» instance document in that the combination describes both the abstract
» service interface and the choreography.  So, an ebXML BSI
» configured out of
» a CPP plus Process-Specification document (the BPSS instance document)
» reflects an interface including both the equivalent of the WSDL
» abstraction
» and the concrete endpoint properties described in the CPP.
»
» Since WSEL has not yet been exposed outside of IBM except for the four
» letters and the very brief description in the WSFL specification, I can't
» comment on its role at this time.  Given that the E stands for "endpoint",
» an obvious inference can be made as to how it conceptually relates to
» ebXML.
»
» Regards,
» Marty
»
» ******************************************************************
» *******************
»
» Martin W. Sachs
» IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
» P. O. B. 704
» Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
» 914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
» Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
» Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
» ******************************************************************
» *******************
»
»
»
» Stefano POGLIANI <stefano.pogliani@sun.com> on 06/27/2001 11:51:01 AM
»
» To:   "Welsh, David" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>, Martin W
»       Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» cc:
» Subject:  RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
»
»
»
» The idea of approaching the CPP/CPA with WSDL has been recurrent in some
» discussions I recently had.
»
» I just would like to add my 2 cents here, expressing my own position.
»
» I think that WSDL and CPP/CPA have some area of overlap, which does not
» mean
» that, IMHO, they overlap.
» The "area of overlap" is the area in which both the specifications aim to
» define how a network component (the WebService or the BSI,
» according to the
» different vocabularies used here) defines itself to other components. So,
» in
» my understanding:
»      - WSDL is a way in which WebServices advertise the way in which
»        they can be accessed.
»        I apologize for the extreme simplification, but WSDL is a sort
»        of API (in XML form) with binding infos
»      - the CPP/CPA, **in addition to other things**, provides a
»        similar "advertising" functionality but it is not API-oriented
»        but is "business process" oriented.
»        Instead of saying which are the "technical doors", the
»        approach of the CPP/CPA is to expose the "logical doors",
»        i.e. the doors "interpreted" in a business process context.
»
» If this succint description makes sense, then I think that WSDL
» and CPP/CPA
» tackle the problem in different ways (in addition of CPP/CPA doing more
» than
» this advertising, at least up to the state-of the WSDL specs). So, I think
» that it would be very difficult to find a compromise on these different
» approaches. It may be possible to "expose both interfaces" at the same
» time,
» perhaps.
»
» I personally think that exposing "technical entry points" is a
» very minimal
» approach, that is good for trivial WS such as currency-converters,
» weather-forecasts and the like (which are the ones that are normally
» mentioned in the literature, btw...). "technical entry points" do not
» capture the "context", do not capture the information about the
» environment
» (and, why not, the reasons) for which a WS is called.
»
» I think that an ebXML BSI, configured out of a CPP, may "reflect" a
» WSDL-like interface. But this could become much more useful when the whole
» WSEL/WSFL picture will be in place.
»
» /stefano
»
» » -----Original Message-----
» » From: Welsh, David [mailto:David.Welsh@nordstrom.com]
» » Sent: 25 June 2001 16:58
» » To: 'Martin W Sachs'; ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» » Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
» »
» »
» » Marty,
» » It would be very useful if 1. was elaborated a little more.
» » Couldn't 2 and 4 be tied to the same thing ? What's behind WSDL
» » is then left to the individual organization to operate; ie. very
» » elaborate system automation or semi-/manual efforts to create the
» » web service. But WSDL appears very important.
» » I'd suggest the BP jury is still out on should there even be a
» » procedural 'BP language' like BPML/WSFL/XLANG, or should BP be
» » more a declarative approach which probably resembles more of the
» » real business world.
» » -Dave
» »
» »
» » > -----Original Message-----
» » > From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com]
» » > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:40 AM
» » > To: ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» » > Subject: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
» » >
» » >
» » > I have received the following suggestions from Karsten Riemer:
» » >
» » > 1. Use of the 'substitution' capability that was added to
» » > BPSS at Vienna.
» » > In
» » > general this expands to how to have generic business
» » > processes, and yet
» » > have
» » > easy to process specializations of those for the specific partners.
» » >
» » > 2. Alignment with WSDL. Generically this expands to how to
» » > best register
» » > the
» » > metadata about a partner's capabilities relative to the BP and its
» » > documents.
» » >
» » > 3. Alignment with other BP languages like BPML and WFSL. This
» » > may seem like
» » > more of a pure BP issue. But actually BPML may play an
» » > important role in
» » > describing what specifically a partner will do internally in
» » > response to an
» » > ebXML exchange. Generically this expands to how we apply XML
» » > to the link
» » > between b2b and EAI.
» » >
» » > 4. Specification of a Business Service Interface. ebXML phase
» » > one shyed
» » > away
» » > from specificying the actual software architecture. We just
» » > hinted that a
» » > BSI
» » > is configured with a CPP. Someone, probably in OASIS should
» » > step up to this
» » > task.
» » >
» » > Items 2 and 4 are clearly CPP-CPA issues.  Item 4 should be joint work
» » > among CPPA, MSG, and BP.
» » > I am less certain about items 1 and 3.  I look forward to
» » > having Karsten
» » > participate and explain.
» » >
» » >
» » > Regards,
» » > Marty
» » >
» » > **************************************************************
» » > ***********************
» » >
» » > Martin W. Sachs
» » > IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
» » > P. O. B. 704
» » > Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
» » > 914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
» » > Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
» » > Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
» » > **************************************************************
» » > ***********************
» » >
» »
»
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