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Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
Stefano, You are correct that I am saying that the function of the process-specification document (i.e. BPSS) could be performed by WSFL/WSDL. WSFL describes a collaborative process in workflow terms and in terms of roles (see the ServiceProvider element). WSDL is the vehicle for advertising the public ports in the WSFL description. As to WSEL, I regret that I am unable to say more than what is mentioned in the WSFL specification. Once IBM publishes a WSEL specification, please be assured that I will be prepared to discuss it in great detail. Regards, Marty ************************************************************************************* Martin W. Sachs IBM T. J. Watson Research Center P. O. B. 704 Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com ************************************************************************************* "Stefano POGLIANI" <stefano.pogliani@sun.com> on 06/28/2001 03:43:30 AM To: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS cc: "Welsh, David" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>, <ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org> Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr Marty, I got it, thanks a lot for the explanation. Actually, without entering WSEL it is a little bit difficult to evaluate. The impression that I have, however, is that it seems that you consider the CPP as a sort of "shell" (with characteristics that will be found in WSEL and some other that are present in WSDL) with, in addition, the reference to a Collaborative Process Spec. This same Process Spec is, today, covered by BPSS but, I assume, you imagine it could be covered also by a combination of WSFL/WSDL. Is this a correct interpretation ? Thanks a lot. /stefano » -----Original Message----- » From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com] » Sent: 27 June 2001 21:40 » To: Stefano POGLIANI » Cc: Welsh, David; ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org » Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr » » » » Stefano, » » We are both correct. » » I meant that the last sentence say "CPP". I will explain: » » There are three different but functionally similar models that we can talk » about » » 1. The CPP plus the Process-Specification document. The » Process-Specification document describes the collaborative » process in terms » of roles. The CPP adds specific party IDs and all the endpoint properties » to the description in the Process-Specification document. » » 2. The CPP plus some combination of WSDL/WSFL. Here the CPP » adds endpoint » properties to the abstract definition of the choreography and interfaces » that is in WSDL/WSDF. » » 3. WSEL plus WSDL/WSFL. Here WSEL would add endpoint properties (whatever » they might be) to WSDL/WSFL. Again, I can't say much about this » combination yet. You can infer what you want from what is in WSFL. » » With regard to the sentence you quoted, I had model (2) in mind. » » Regards, » Marty » » ****************************************************************** » ******************* » » Martin W. Sachs » IBM T. J. Watson Research Center » P. O. B. 704 » Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 » 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 » Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM » Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com » ****************************************************************** » ******************* » » » » "Stefano POGLIANI" <stefano.pogliani@sun.com> on 06/27/2001 03:03:28 PM » » To: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS » cc: "Welsh, David" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>, » <ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org> » Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr » » » » Marty, » » I agree with this explanation. I thought mine was not very » different from this one. » My take was that WSDL is not enough by itself; if we complete it » with WSEL/WSFL, then I see the equivalence. » » I do not understrand the following sentence, though: » » » So, an ebXML BSI configured out of » » a CPP plus Process-Specification document (the BPSS instance document) » » reflects an interface including both the equivalent of the WSDL » » abstraction and the concrete endpoint properties described in the CPP. » » Is the last "CPP" reference what you meant? » » Thanks a lot for the comment! » » /stefano » » » -----Original Message----- » » From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com] » » Sent: 27 June 2001 20:18 » » To: Stefano POGLIANI » » Cc: Welsh, David; ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org » » Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr » » » » » » » » Stefano, » » » » While I agree with most of your comments, I would like to offer a » somewhat » » different view of these matters. » » » » WSDL does not overlap the CPP/CPA at all. Indeed, WSDL, as you say, is » a » » way in which a Web Service advertises the way it can be » accessed. In the » » ebXML world, this advertisement is effectively part of the BPSS instance » » document that is referenced by the CPP and CPA. More precisely, the » » combination of WSFL and WSDL is architecturally equivalent to the BPSS » » instance document in that the combination describes both the abstract » » service interface and the choreography. So, an ebXML BSI » » configured out of » » a CPP plus Process-Specification document (the BPSS instance document) » » reflects an interface including both the equivalent of the WSDL » » abstraction » » and the concrete endpoint properties described in the CPP. » » » » Since WSEL has not yet been exposed outside of IBM except for the four » » letters and the very brief description in the WSFL » specification, I can't » » comment on its role at this time. Given that the E stands for » "endpoint", » » an obvious inference can be made as to how it conceptually relates to » » ebXML. » » » » Regards, » » Marty » » » » ****************************************************************** » » ******************* » » » » Martin W. Sachs » » IBM T. J. Watson Research Center » » P. O. B. 704 » » Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 » » 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 » » Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM » » Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com » » ****************************************************************** » » ******************* » » » » » » » » Stefano POGLIANI <stefano.pogliani@sun.com> on 06/27/2001 11:51:01 AM » » » » To: "Welsh, David" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>, Martin W » » Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org » » cc: » » Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr » » » » » » » » The idea of approaching the CPP/CPA with WSDL has been recurrent in some » » discussions I recently had. » » » » I just would like to add my 2 cents here, expressing my own position. » » » » I think that WSDL and CPP/CPA have some area of overlap, which does not » » mean » » that, IMHO, they overlap. » » The "area of overlap" is the area in which both the » specifications aim to » » define how a network component (the WebService or the BSI, » » according to the » » different vocabularies used here) defines itself to other » components. So, » » in » » my understanding: » » - WSDL is a way in which WebServices advertise the way in which » » they can be accessed. » » I apologize for the extreme simplification, but WSDL is a sort » » of API (in XML form) with binding infos » » - the CPP/CPA, **in addition to other things**, provides a » » similar "advertising" functionality but it is not API-oriented » » but is "business process" oriented. » » Instead of saying which are the "technical doors", the » » approach of the CPP/CPA is to expose the "logical doors", » » i.e. the doors "interpreted" in a business process context. » » » » If this succint description makes sense, then I think that WSDL » » and CPP/CPA » » tackle the problem in different ways (in addition of CPP/CPA doing more » » than » » this advertising, at least up to the state-of the WSDL specs). So, I » think » » that it would be very difficult to find a compromise on these different » » approaches. It may be possible to "expose both interfaces" at the same » » time, » » perhaps. » » » » I personally think that exposing "technical entry points" is a » » very minimal » » approach, that is good for trivial WS such as currency-converters, » » weather-forecasts and the like (which are the ones that are normally » » mentioned in the literature, btw...). "technical entry points" do not » » capture the "context", do not capture the information about the » » environment » » (and, why not, the reasons) for which a WS is called. » » » » I think that an ebXML BSI, configured out of a CPP, may "reflect" a » » WSDL-like interface. But this could become much more useful when the » whole » » WSEL/WSFL picture will be in place. » » » » /stefano » » » » » -----Original Message----- » » » From: Welsh, David [mailto:David.Welsh@nordstrom.com] » » » Sent: 25 June 2001 16:58 » » » To: 'Martin W Sachs'; ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org » » » Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr » » » » » » » » » Marty, » » » It would be very useful if 1. was elaborated a little more. » » » Couldn't 2 and 4 be tied to the same thing ? What's behind WSDL » » » is then left to the individual organization to operate; ie. very » » » elaborate system automation or semi-/manual efforts to create the » » » web service. But WSDL appears very important. » » » I'd suggest the BP jury is still out on should there even be a » » » procedural 'BP language' like BPML/WSFL/XLANG, or should BP be » » » more a declarative approach which probably resembles more of the » » » real business world. » » » -Dave » » » » » » » » » > -----Original Message----- » » » > From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com] » » » > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:40 AM » » » > To: ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org » » » > Subject: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr » » » > » » » > » » » > I have received the following suggestions from Karsten Riemer: » » » > » » » > 1. Use of the 'substitution' capability that was added to » » » > BPSS at Vienna. » » » > In » » » > general this expands to how to have generic business » » » > processes, and yet » » » > have » » » > easy to process specializations of those for the specific partners. » » » > » » » > 2. Alignment with WSDL. Generically this expands to how to » » » > best register » » » > the » » » > metadata about a partner's capabilities relative to the BP and its » » » > documents. » » » > » » » > 3. Alignment with other BP languages like BPML and WFSL. This » » » > may seem like » » » > more of a pure BP issue. But actually BPML may play an » » » > important role in » » » > describing what specifically a partner will do internally in » » » > response to an » » » > ebXML exchange. Generically this expands to how we apply XML » » » > to the link » » » > between b2b and EAI. » » » > » » » > 4. Specification of a Business Service Interface. ebXML phase » » » > one shyed » » » > away » » » > from specificying the actual software architecture. We just » » » > hinted that a » » » > BSI » » » > is configured with a CPP. Someone, probably in OASIS should » » » > step up to this » » » > task. » » » > » » » > Items 2 and 4 are clearly CPP-CPA issues. Item 4 should be joint » work » » » > among CPPA, MSG, and BP. » » » > I am less certain about items 1 and 3. I look forward to » » » > having Karsten » » » > participate and explain. » » » > » » » > » » » > Regards, » » » > Marty » » » > » » » > ************************************************************** » » » > *********************** » » » > » » » > Martin W. Sachs » » » > IBM T. J. Watson Research Center » » » > P. O. B. 704 » » » > Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 » » » > 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 » » » > Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM » » » > Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com » » » > ************************************************************** » » » > *********************** » » » > » » » » » » » » » » » » » » » » » »
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