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Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr



Stefano,

You are correct that I am saying that the function of the
process-specification document (i.e. BPSS) could be performed by WSFL/WSDL.
WSFL describes a collaborative process in workflow terms and in terms of
roles (see the ServiceProvider element).  WSDL is the vehicle for
advertising the public ports in the WSFL description.

As to WSEL, I regret that I am unable to say more than what is mentioned in
the WSFL specification.  Once IBM publishes a WSEL specification, please be
assured that I will be prepared to discuss it in great detail.

Regards,
Marty

*************************************************************************************

Martin W. Sachs
IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
P. O. B. 704
Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
*************************************************************************************



"Stefano POGLIANI" <stefano.pogliani@sun.com> on 06/28/2001 03:43:30 AM

To:   Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
cc:   "Welsh, David" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>,
      <ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject:  RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr



Marty, I got it, thanks a lot for the explanation.

Actually, without entering WSEL it is a little bit difficult to evaluate.

The impression that I have, however, is that it seems that you consider
the CPP as a sort of "shell" (with characteristics that will be found
in WSEL and some other that are present in WSDL) with, in addition,
the reference to a Collaborative Process Spec. This same Process Spec
is, today, covered by BPSS but, I assume, you imagine it could be
covered also by a combination of WSFL/WSDL.

Is this a correct interpretation ?

Thanks a lot.

/stefano

» -----Original Message-----
» From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com]
» Sent: 27 June 2001 21:40
» To: Stefano POGLIANI
» Cc: Welsh, David; ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
»
»
»
» Stefano,
»
» We are both correct.
»
» I meant that the last sentence say "CPP".  I will explain:
»
» There are three different but functionally similar models that we can
talk
» about
»
» 1. The CPP plus the Process-Specification document.  The
» Process-Specification document describes the collaborative
» process in terms
» of roles.  The CPP adds specific party IDs and all the endpoint
properties
» to the description in the Process-Specification document.
»
» 2.  The CPP plus some combination of WSDL/WSFL.  Here the CPP
» adds endpoint
» properties to the abstract definition of the choreography and interfaces
» that is in WSDL/WSDF.
»
» 3. WSEL plus WSDL/WSFL.  Here WSEL would add endpoint properties
(whatever
» they might be) to WSDL/WSFL.  Again, I can't say much about this
» combination yet.  You can infer what you want from what is in WSFL.
»
» With regard to the sentence you quoted, I had model (2) in mind.
»
» Regards,
» Marty
»
» ******************************************************************
» *******************
»
» Martin W. Sachs
» IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
» P. O. B. 704
» Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
» 914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
» Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
» Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
» ******************************************************************
» *******************
»
»
»
» "Stefano POGLIANI" <stefano.pogliani@sun.com> on 06/27/2001 03:03:28 PM
»
» To:   Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
» cc:   "Welsh, David" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>,
»       <ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org>
» Subject:  RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
»
»
»
» Marty,
»
»      I agree with this explanation. I thought mine was not very
» different from this one.
» My take was that WSDL is not enough by itself; if we complete it
» with WSEL/WSFL, then I see the equivalence.
»
» I do not understrand the following sentence, though:
»
» » So, an ebXML BSI configured out of
» » a CPP plus Process-Specification document (the BPSS instance document)
» » reflects an interface including both the equivalent of the WSDL
» » abstraction and the concrete endpoint properties described in the CPP.
»
» Is the last "CPP" reference what you meant?
»
» Thanks a lot for the comment!
»
» /stefano
»
» » -----Original Message-----
» » From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com]
» » Sent: 27 June 2001 20:18
» » To: Stefano POGLIANI
» » Cc: Welsh, David; ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» » Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
» »
» »
» »
» » Stefano,
» »
» » While I agree with most of your comments, I would like to offer a
» somewhat
» » different view of these matters.
» »
» » WSDL does not overlap the CPP/CPA at all.  Indeed, WSDL, as you say,
is
» a
» » way in which a Web Service advertises the way it can be
» accessed.  In the
» » ebXML world, this advertisement is effectively part of the BPSS
instance
» » document that is referenced by the CPP and CPA.  More precisely, the
» » combination of WSFL and WSDL is architecturally equivalent to the BPSS
» » instance document in that the combination describes both the abstract
» » service interface and the choreography.  So, an ebXML BSI
» » configured out of
» » a CPP plus Process-Specification document (the BPSS instance document)
» » reflects an interface including both the equivalent of the WSDL
» » abstraction
» » and the concrete endpoint properties described in the CPP.
» »
» » Since WSEL has not yet been exposed outside of IBM except for the four
» » letters and the very brief description in the WSFL
» specification, I can't
» » comment on its role at this time.  Given that the E stands for
» "endpoint",
» » an obvious inference can be made as to how it conceptually relates to
» » ebXML.
» »
» » Regards,
» » Marty
» »
» » ******************************************************************
» » *******************
» »
» » Martin W. Sachs
» » IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
» » P. O. B. 704
» » Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
» » 914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
» » Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
» » Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
» » ******************************************************************
» » *******************
» »
» »
» »
» » Stefano POGLIANI <stefano.pogliani@sun.com> on 06/27/2001 11:51:01 AM
» »
» » To:   "Welsh, David" <David.Welsh@nordstrom.com>, Martin W
» »       Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» » cc:
» » Subject:  RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
» »
» »
» »
» » The idea of approaching the CPP/CPA with WSDL has been recurrent in
some
» » discussions I recently had.
» »
» » I just would like to add my 2 cents here, expressing my own position.
» »
» » I think that WSDL and CPP/CPA have some area of overlap, which does not
» » mean
» » that, IMHO, they overlap.
» » The "area of overlap" is the area in which both the
» specifications aim to
» » define how a network component (the WebService or the BSI,
» » according to the
» » different vocabularies used here) defines itself to other
» components. So,
» » in
» » my understanding:
» »      - WSDL is a way in which WebServices advertise the way in which
» »        they can be accessed.
» »        I apologize for the extreme simplification, but WSDL is a sort
» »        of API (in XML form) with binding infos
» »      - the CPP/CPA, **in addition to other things**, provides a
» »        similar "advertising" functionality but it is not API-oriented
» »        but is "business process" oriented.
» »        Instead of saying which are the "technical doors", the
» »        approach of the CPP/CPA is to expose the "logical doors",
» »        i.e. the doors "interpreted" in a business process context.
» »
» » If this succint description makes sense, then I think that WSDL
» » and CPP/CPA
» » tackle the problem in different ways (in addition of CPP/CPA doing more
» » than
» » this advertising, at least up to the state-of the WSDL specs). So, I
» think
» » that it would be very difficult to find a compromise on these different
» » approaches. It may be possible to "expose both interfaces" at the same
» » time,
» » perhaps.
» »
» » I personally think that exposing "technical entry points" is a
» » very minimal
» » approach, that is good for trivial WS such as currency-converters,
» » weather-forecasts and the like (which are the ones that are normally
» » mentioned in the literature, btw...). "technical entry points" do not
» » capture the "context", do not capture the information about the
» » environment
» » (and, why not, the reasons) for which a WS is called.
» »
» » I think that an ebXML BSI, configured out of a CPP, may "reflect" a
» » WSDL-like interface. But this could become much more useful when the
» whole
» » WSEL/WSFL picture will be in place.
» »
» » /stefano
» »
» » » -----Original Message-----
» » » From: Welsh, David [mailto:David.Welsh@nordstrom.com]
» » » Sent: 25 June 2001 16:58
» » » To: 'Martin W Sachs'; ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» » » Subject: RE: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
» » »
» » »
» » » Marty,
» » » It would be very useful if 1. was elaborated a little more.
» » » Couldn't 2 and 4 be tied to the same thing ? What's behind WSDL
» » » is then left to the individual organization to operate; ie. very
» » » elaborate system automation or semi-/manual efforts to create the
» » » web service. But WSDL appears very important.
» » » I'd suggest the BP jury is still out on should there even be a
» » » procedural 'BP language' like BPML/WSFL/XLANG, or should BP be
» » » more a declarative approach which probably resembles more of the
» » » real business world.
» » » -Dave
» » »
» » »
» » » > -----Original Message-----
» » » > From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com]
» » » > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 7:40 AM
» » » > To: ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
» » » > Subject: Suggestions from Karsten Riemenr
» » » >
» » » >
» » » > I have received the following suggestions from Karsten Riemer:
» » » >
» » » > 1. Use of the 'substitution' capability that was added to
» » » > BPSS at Vienna.
» » » > In
» » » > general this expands to how to have generic business
» » » > processes, and yet
» » » > have
» » » > easy to process specializations of those for the specific partners.
» » » >
» » » > 2. Alignment with WSDL. Generically this expands to how to
» » » > best register
» » » > the
» » » > metadata about a partner's capabilities relative to the BP and its
» » » > documents.
» » » >
» » » > 3. Alignment with other BP languages like BPML and WFSL. This
» » » > may seem like
» » » > more of a pure BP issue. But actually BPML may play an
» » » > important role in
» » » > describing what specifically a partner will do internally in
» » » > response to an
» » » > ebXML exchange. Generically this expands to how we apply XML
» » » > to the link
» » » > between b2b and EAI.
» » » >
» » » > 4. Specification of a Business Service Interface. ebXML phase
» » » > one shyed
» » » > away
» » » > from specificying the actual software architecture. We just
» » » > hinted that a
» » » > BSI
» » » > is configured with a CPP. Someone, probably in OASIS should
» » » > step up to this
» » » > task.
» » » >
» » » > Items 2 and 4 are clearly CPP-CPA issues.  Item 4 should be joint
» work
» » » > among CPPA, MSG, and BP.
» » » > I am less certain about items 1 and 3.  I look forward to
» » » > having Karsten
» » » > participate and explain.
» » » >
» » » >
» » » > Regards,
» » » > Marty
» » » >
» » » > **************************************************************
» » » > ***********************
» » » >
» » » > Martin W. Sachs
» » » > IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
» » » > P. O. B. 704
» » » > Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
» » » > 914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
» » » > Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
» » » > Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
» » » > **************************************************************
» » » > ***********************
» » » >
» » »
» »
» »
» »
» »
» »
»
»
»
»
»






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