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Subject: Re: [ebxml-cppa] Re: [ebxml-iic] Simple trading partner configurationfor ebMS


Marty,

Do you have a minimal CPA example handy?

-Matt

On Monday, Aug 26, 2002, at 05:57 America/Vancouver, Martin W Sachs  
wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> Matt,
>
> Your suggestion would work.  My only concern is that the subset schemas
> would not be conformant with the CPPA specification if they omitted
> elements or attributes that have minOccurs greater than zero.
>
> My suggestion for the subset profiles was to define "prototype" CPAs  
> that
> omit what is not needed and has minOccurs="0", and have values already
> filled in that are not to be changed. The schema would remain the  
> approved
> CPPA schema.  Using separate namespaces is a good idea.
>
> These subset CPAs would be CPA templates that also would conform to the
> future automated negotiation specification.  As with any CPA template,  
> the
> subset CPA templates could be described by the automated-negotiation
> Negotiation Descriptor Document to show what elements and attributes  
> are
> modifiable. So, doing it the way I described would also be conformant  
> with
> the automated negotiation specification when it is approved. This would
> also facilitate using a CPA composition tool to compose the subset  
> CPAs.
>
> Regards,
> Marty
>
> *********************************************************************** 
> **************
>
> Martin W. Sachs
> IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
> P. O. B. 704
> Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
> 914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
> Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
> Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
> *********************************************************************** 
> **************
>
>
>
>                       Matthew MacKenzie
>                       <matt@xmlglobal.         To:       Martin W  
> Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
>                       com>                     cc:       Dale Moberg  
> <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>, "Cppalist (E-mail)"
>                                                  
> <ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org>, ebxml-iic@lists.oasis-open.org
>                       08/25/2002 10:23         Subject:  Re:  
> [ebxml-cppa] Re: [ebxml-iic] Simple trading partner
>                       PM                        configuration for ebMS
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Marty,
>
> Your comments are right on the money.  I don't really want to start
> flooding the world with more standards, but I really want to see a
> simple and short TPA in the spirit of the schema I just sent out.  The
> "profile" concept is interesting.  I would like to see a set of
> profiles in the form of a few schemas which use the core CPPA schema as
> a type library.  Each schema would have a slightly different namespace,
> so that a CPPA implementation would be able to understand which profile
> is in use.
>
> Does that jive with what you were thinking?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matt
>
> On Sunday, August 25, 2002, at 12:43  PM, Martin W Sachs wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt,
>>
>> Thanks for the proposal. I'm sure that the team will give it serious
>> attention.
>>
>> I have a concerrn that publishing a normative subset schema may  
>> confuse
>> more than it will help. It is not clear that only one subset schema
>> would
>> be sufficient. I have the following thoughts.
>>
>> What may be the right subset schema for your customer set is not
>> necessarily the right one for other customer sets. Another approach,
>> which
>> has worked well in other feature-rich standards, is to define one or
>> more
>> "CPPA Profiles" that apply to different customer sets, industry
>> verticals,
>> etc. Such a profile defines those features that enterprises in a given
>> "sub-industry" must support.  It can specify values for those elements
>> and
>> attributes are the same in every CPP or CPA in the group and list  
>> those
>> features whose cardinality includes minOccurs="0" that are not to be
>> used.
>> Each profile would include CPP and CPA Templates (a prototype of the
>> subset
>> CPP or CPA) that expose the required features and leave out everything
>> not
>> needed whose cardinality includes minOccurs="0". These profiles could
>> be
>> developed by the appropriate industry groupings, coordinating with the
>> CPPA
>> team. The could be published either by the individual groupings or by
>> OASIS
>> as technical reports. With this approach, there is no need to have
>> subset
>> schemas since the subset CPPs and CPAs would validate against the
>> standard
>> CPPA schema. Also, by not omitting CPPA elements and attributes whose
>> cardinality is greater than zero, standard CPA deployment tools and
>> run-
>> time middleware would be able to handle the subset CPAs.
>>
>> A CPP-CPA composition tool could be designed to be tailored for
>> profiles
>> and to show the CPP or CPA author minimal complexity.  Its GUI would
>> present to the author only those elements and attributes that require
>> decisions for the selected profile.  Elements and attributes of
>> cardinality
>> minOccurs="0" that the profile defines as absent would not be shown to
>> the
>> author.  Also, elements and attributes whose values are fixed by the
>> profile would not be shown to the author. The tool could also include  
>> a
>> feature to be used for defining new profiles. Profile support should
>> be a
>> good value-added opportunity for CPPA tool vendors.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Marty
>>
>>
>>
>> ********************************************************************** 
>> *
>> **************
>>
>> Martin W. Sachs
>> IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
>> P. O. B. 704
>> Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
>> 914-784-7287;  IBM tie line 863-7287
>> Notes address:  Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
>> Internet address:  mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
>> ********************************************************************** 
>> *
>> **************
>>
>>
>>
>>                       Matthew MacKenzie
>>                       <matt@xmlglobal.         To:       Dale Moberg
>> <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>
>>                       com>                     cc:
>> ebxml-iic@lists.oasis-open.org, "Cppalist (E-mail)" <ebxml-
>>
>> cppa@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>                       08/24/2002 12:16         Subject:  [ebxml-cppa]
>> Re: [ebxml-iic] Simple trading partner configuration
>>                       PM                        for ebMS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dale,
>>
>> Here you go, The schema and a sample is attached.  I have to say that
>> this schema came to be out of a perception that CPA is a bit too
>> complex for the average user.  My company has fully implemented CPA  
>> v2,
>> so the design of CPA isn't really at issue.  I've recently had to
>> maintain 24+ CPAs, and I can tell you that it is a serious pain.
>>
>> Maybe this group could consider a Simple CPA schema, which is a subset
>> of the full schema.  I believe the docbook guys did this as well to  
>> try
>> and make it easier to get users feet wet.  70/30 or even 60/40 is
>> probably the kind of markup reduction I'm thinking of.  Maybe schema
>> modularization is the name of the game.  You can decide.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, August 23, 2002, at 06:38  PM, Dale Moberg wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Matt,
>>>
>>> I skimmed the schema you provided. I guess it
>>> is one of the "70/30" optimization gambits.
>>> Anders from OpenEbXML has proposed a similar
>>> lightweight schema within the JSR 157 group.
>>>
>>> As such, I think it might be worthwhile sending
>>> to the ebxml CPPA TC for consideration. It
>>> is especially interesting in that it might promote
>>> adoption of profile/protocol-binding technologies,
>>> because of its minimalisticYetEssential view of
>>> configuring the b2b side of the MSH.
>>>
>>> So the advantage I see is that it is geared for the
>>> ebXML MSH (it may ignore some of the PKI support
>>> the security risk document recommended--I would
>>> think about adding that in, at least optionally).
>>>
>>> A political problem is that it more or less dispenses with the BPSS
>>> hooks (and so becomes choreography/flow/orchestration/process
>>> independent). That may be feasible via the modularity doctrine,
>>> however.
>>>
>>> Would you be willing to cross post the example and schema
>>> to ebXML-CPPA? Maybe a few words in support of a CPA-lite
>>> could accompany the post?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dale Moberg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Matthew MacKenzie [mailto:matt@xmlglobal.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 4:07 PM
>>> To: ebxml-iic@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Subject: [ebxml-iic] Simple trading partner configuration for ebMS
>>>
>>>
>>> Team,
>>>
>>> As we discussed during the F2F today, I've put together a simple CPA
>>> replacement that has the bare minimum configuration information for 2
>>> parties.  These could be what we use for specifying MSH configuration
>>> for conformance and interoperability.  It also could form a CPA
>>> replacement, which is designed over time to meet vendor needs as per
>>> discussions we had today (Myself, Hatem@IPNet, Jeff@Cyclone).
>>>
>>> If you're interested in this development for use beyond testing,
>>> please
>>> help me out by supplying feedback -- is there anything missing that a
>>> good MSH needs out of a TPA?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Matt
>>
>>
>> #### tpa.xsd has been removed from this note on August 25 2002 by
>> Martin W
>> Sachs
>> #### tpaSample.xml has been removed from this note on August 25 2002  
>> by
>> Martin W Sachs
>>
>>
>>
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>
>



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