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Subject: Re: T2, Proposed solution for ... Re: SyncReply andReliableMessagingMethod in QualityOfServiceInfo
David and David: Are you saying that a sending MSH must retry either if an intermediate Ack has not been received or if the end-to-end DeliveryReceipt has not been received, and that the resent message should carry an incremented retry count if it is being resent due to non-receipt of the end-to-end DeliveryReceipt? If so, do we need two sets of retry parameters (i.e., retry count and retry interval) to govern the two different kinds of retry? Thanks, -Arvola -----Original Message----- From: Burdett, David <david.burdett@commerceone.com> To: 'David Fischer' <david@drummondgroup.com>; Arvola Chan <arvola@tibco.com> Cc: ebXML Msg <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> Date: Friday, August 24, 2001 5:46 PM Subject: RE: T2, Proposed solution for ... Re: SyncReply and ReliableMessagingMethod in QualityOfServiceInfo >David > >I largely agree with you specifically see below marked with <db></db> > >David > > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Fischer [mailto:david@drummondgroup.com] >Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 4:14 PM >To: Arvola Chan >Cc: ebXML Msg >Subject: RE: T2, Proposed solution for ... Re: SyncReply and >ReliableMessagingMethod in QualityOfServiceInfo > > >Arvola, > ><df> comments inline </df> > >David Fischer >Drummond Group. >-----Original Message----- >From: Arvola Chan [mailto:arvola@tibco.com] >Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:35 AM >To: HUGHESJIM (HP-Cupertinoex1); ebXML Messaging (E-mail) >Subject: Re: T2, Proposed solution for ... Re: SyncReply and >ReliableMessagingMethod in QualityOfServiceInfo > > >My opinion is that the current spec is so broken that extensive >changes may be necessary to get end to end reliable messaging >over multiple hops to work properly. I agree with you and that >intermediate Acks used by the intermediaries are the likely source >of the problem. ><df> agreed </df> > >If we stipulate that only the sending MSH and the receiving MSH >adopt the reliable messaging behavior, I believe end to end reliable >messaging will work regardless of whether intermediaries are >present. However, this may make reliable messaging not very >useful for certain use cases, e.g., where the sending MSH does >not have a permanent Internet presence. > ><df> This is not all that hard if we keep the present structure of >DeliveryReceipt as the end-to-end Ack and the Acknowledgement element as the >IM >hop Ack. ><db>Agreed</db> >This is already in the spec and nothing about these elements needs to >be changed. We only need to specify in section 10 that if the To Party MSH >gets >a DeliverySemantics=1&o1 then send a DeliveryReceipt to the From Party MSH >(along with ...). ><db>I think I agree.</db> > >Unfortunately, this does not deal with the duplicate problem. If I (the >From >Party MSH) don't get a DR back, then I will retry (Retries and RetryInterval >are >end-to-end parameters, not hop-to-hop). I don't want any IMs rejecting my >retry >due to duplicates. We can fix this by either: > 1) telling the IMs not to worry about duplicates or > 2) add a RetryCount attribute and change the way > IMs handle duplicates. ><db>I think that a Retry Count is the best way to go handle this rather than >a different MessageId that I suggested earlier.</db> > >The way we handle duplicates now is definitely broke. </df> > >I now realize there is a problem in my previous proposal to have >the sending MSH stop retrying once it gets an Ack from the next >intermediary, and then wait for the DeliveryReceipt from the >receiving MSH. Unless the DeliveryReceipt is sent reliably, it >may get lost, so the sending MSH may falsely notify the sending >application that reliable messaging has failed. ><db>Yes and no. If the DR is being sent asynchronously on a spearate session >then it needs to be sent reliably. If it is being sent synchronously on the >same channel then the DR is the acknowledgement and so does not need to be >sent reliably.</db> > >If the DeliveryReceipt >is sent reliably, then it may require end to end acknowledgement >from the sending MSH, possibly triggering an infinite chain of >DeliveryReceipt messages. (A possible workaround may be to >require that if a DeliveryReceipt is sent reliably and on its own, >then it must not request for DeliveryReceipt.) > ><df> agreed -- no DR for a DR and no Ack for an Ack and no Error on an >Error. ><db>Completely agree</db> >We can get carried away with RM if we start sending Acknowledgements or DR >reliably. We also have to pick either Ack on Error or Error on Ack but not >both. I think I prefer Error on Ack... I'm not sure? ><db>This depends on whether the original message was being sent >synchronously for the same reasons as in the Delivery Receipt discussion >above.</db> ></df> > >-Arvola > >-----Original Message----- >From: HUGHES,JIM (HP-Cupertino,ex1) <jim_hughes@hp.com> >To: ebXML Messaging (E-mail) <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> >Date: Monday, August 13, 2001 7:17 PM >Subject: RE: T2, Proposed solution for ... Re: SyncReply and ReliableMessa >gingMethod in QualityOfServiceInfo > > >>Question: Does "reliable messaging" mean that the initial MSH (and maybe >>intermediate node MSHs) needs to consider this as a quality request and, if >>possible, pick the "most" reliable transport available? Or, is this just a >>protocol for the receiving MSH to send a confirming ACK back to the sending >>MSH? >> >>I think it's the latter, and thus there is no directive for intermediate >>node links to use the RM protocol to confirm among themselves that this >>message got through. From their perspective, the overall MSH Ack looks like >>a higher level function to them... and, in fact, it seems to me that having >>the intermediate links try to use their own version of RM between their >>endpoints really complicates the picture and maybe they should be >prohibited >>from trying to use RM since they aren't the start/end-points for the >overall >>message... IMO. >> >>jim >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arvola Chan [mailto:arvola@tibco.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 9:30 PM >>> To: David Fischer; Burdett David >>> Cc: ebXML Messaging (E-mail) >>> Subject: Re: T2, Proposed solution for ... Re: SyncReply and >>> ReliableMessaging Method in QualityOfServiceInfo >>> >>> >>> David: >>> >>> My comments are bracketed by <ac> and </ac>. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> -Arvola >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "David Fischer" <david@drummondgroup.com> >>> To: "Arvola Chan" <arvola@tibco.com>; "Burdett David" >>> <david.burdett@commerceone.com> >>> Cc: "ebXML Messaging (E-mail)" <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> >>> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 2:33 PM >>> Subject: RE: T2, Proposed solution for ... Re: SyncReply and >>> ReliableMessaging Method in QualityOfServiceInfo >>> >>> >>> > Arvola, >>> > >>> > What if I am sending to you and you are using an IM for >>> some reason, e.g. >>> no >>> > persistent connection? I might not even know and since I have no >>> agreement with >>> > that IM (my agreement is only with you), I cannot be responsible for >>> putting the >>> > CPAid in the Via -- there is no CPAid. What I can do is >>> fill in the Via >>> fields >>> > as much as I am able in case there is an IM I am not aware >>> of. This, IMO >>> will >>> > be a very common use case. >>> > >>> > This exact same situation would arise if you used multiple >>> MSHs where one >>> was a >>> > mailroom. >>> > >>> >>> <ac> >>> I must admit that your use case is a very valid one and I >>> have not made >>> provision for >>> it. >>> >>> Come to think of it, when I suggested that the sender MSH >>> should dictate if >>> all intermediaries >>> should use reliable message or not at all, it is not strictly >>> necessary for >>> the sender MSH to >>> know that intermediaries are involved, all it is choosing is between >>> reliable message with >>> intermediate Acks vs reliable messaging without intermediate Acks. >>> >>> As you have indicated earlier, "Even though the ends don't >>> need to know >>> about the IMs, >>> it is critical that the IMs realize their role." There, the >>> IMs should be >>> able to respect the >>> directive from the sender MSH to use intermediate Acks or not. >>> </ac> >>> >>> > You are correct, I need to be more clear. I believe the >>> sender MSH would >>> > construct the Via. This Via would pass to the first IM MSH >>> who would >>> construct >>> > a new Via (possibly very similar to the original) and pass >>> this new Via to >>> the >>> > next hop's MSH. >>> > >>> > NEW PROBLEM WITH MULTI-HOP? >>> > This brings up a good point. I (the From Party MSH) know >>> how to send to >>> you >>> > (the To Party MSH) because I can look up your connection >>> info in the CPA >>> > Database based upon a CPAid and a ChannelID. This info >>> might not reside >>> in the >>> > To PartyID element. If my message goes through an IM, how >>> does the IM >>> know >>> > where to send? I don't send to you, I send to my IM. If I >>> am using an >>> IM, does >>> > that mean any time I make an entry in my database I also >>> have to duplicate >>> that >>> > info to my IM (and they to each of their IMs etc.)? This >>> would not be >>> > acceptable. Maybe this connection info MUST reside in the >>> To PartyID? >>> This >>> > would not be a problem for single-hop. Maybe the Receiver >>> connection info >>> needs >>> > to be put in the Via? >>> > >>> >>> <ac> >>> I agree with you this is a problem. The intermediary needs to >>> be configured >>> with the >>> Endpoint and various characteristics for the To Party (or the >>> Endpoint for >>> yet another >>> intermediary who can route messages to the To Party directly >>> or indirectly >>> and its >>> characteristics). My understanding is that CPPs and CPAs >>> currently deal only >>> with >>> the point to point case. Therefore, there is no automated way >>> to configure >>> intermediaries >>> using CPAs. This is something the CPP/A TC will have to >>> address in its 2.0 >>> spec. >>> </ac> >>> >>> > Regards, >>> > >>> > David Fischer >>> > Drummond Group. >>> > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >>To unsubscribe from this elist send a message with the single word >>"unsubscribe" in the body to: ebxml-msg-request@lists.oasis-open.org > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from this elist send a message with the single word >"unsubscribe" in the body to: ebxml-msg-request@lists.oasis-open.org > > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription >manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription >manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
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