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Subject: Re: [ebxml-msg] Re: Use cases for messageOrdering
Marty: You are correct. Multiple concurrent instantiations should be treated as separate conversations. They are not relevant to the message ordering issue. Regards, -Arvola -----Original Message----- From: Martin W Sachs <mwsachs@us.ibm.com> To: Arvola Chan <arvola@tibco.com> Cc: Jacques Durand <JDurand@fs.fujitsu.com>; ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> Date: Friday, November 30, 2001 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [ebxml-msg] Re: Use cases for messageOrdering Arvola, Thank you for providing this information. Just one point: Your discussion of multiple concurrent instantiations of a PIP is presumably not relevant to the message ordering issue since (I assume) that each instantiation would be a separate conversation. Regards, Marty **************************************************************************** ********* Martin W. Sachs IBM T. J. Watson Research Center P. O. B. 704 Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com **************************************************************************** ********* Arvola Chan <arvola@tibco.com> on 11/30/2001 07:53:39 PM To: Jacques Durand <JDurand@fs.fujitsu.com>, Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM@IBMUS cc: ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [ebxml-msg] Re: Use cases for messageOrdering Jacques: Let me quote one particular subsection in the RNIF 2.0 specification: 2.6.6 Handling Retries and Late Acknowledgments As established earlier, the trading partner sending an action message retries the message until either a Signal (Receipt Acknowledgment or Exception) is received or a timeout condition occurs. Hence, the receiver MUST be prepared to receive the same action message more than once. In such a case, if the action requires a ReceiptAcknowledgment, the Receipt Acknowledgment (or Exception if there is a failure)MUST be resent. Also, as mentioned earlier, the PIP choreography is independent of the transfer or transport mechanisms. Therefore, it is possible that for a given request, the Receipt Acknowledgment can arrive after the response message. This MUST NOT be deemed as an out-of-order message. If the response is received before the Receipt Acknowledgment and the request action requires non-repudiation of receipt, then any of the following suggested approaches MAY be followed. A response that arrives before the Receipt Acknowledgment MAY either be queued for processing until the Receipt Acknowledgment is received or processed immediately. If the response is processed immediately, then the process SHALL NOT be completed until the Receipt Acknowledgment is received, since the Receipt Acknowledgment contains the digest information for non-repudiation of receipt. These approaches are suggestive only and the implementer is free to choose a similar approach as long as the result is the same (i.e., the response SHALL NOT be rejected unless a timeout occurs waiting for the Receipt Acknowledgment). Thus, the RosettaNet Implementation Framework does not assume that messages will always arrive in the same order as being sent. The receiver is expected to do some bufferring to deal with messages that arrive out of sequence, rather than raising exceptions immediately. The sequence diagrams you have seen in RosettaNet PIP specifications are with respect to a single instance of that PIP's execution. I don't recall PIP specifications stating whether multiple instantiations can be active concurrently but I believe typical implementations would allow concurrent instantiations of the same PIP. Regards, -Arvola -----Original Message----- From: Jacques Durand <JDurand@fs.fujitsu.com> To: 'Arvola Chan' <arvola@tibco.com>; Martin W Sachs <mwsachs@us.ibm.com> Cc: ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> Date: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:24 PM Subject: RE: [ebxml-msg] Re: Use cases for messageOrdering Comments in line, Jacques D. -----Original Message----- From: Arvola Chan [mailto:arvola@tibco.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 12:03 PM To: Martin W Sachs Cc: ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [ebxml-msg] Re: Use cases for messageOrdering Marty: RosettaNet PIPs conform to business transaction patterns defined in the UMM. They make use of business signals (Receipt Acknowledgments) to indicate successful receipt of business documents. Sometimes, the Receipt Acknowledgment signal also serves the function of providing non repudiation of receipt. All asynchronous RosettaNet PIPs that I am aware of make use of Receipt Acknowledgments. The only synchronous PIP in existence, PIP2A9, fits into the UMM query-response pattern, so there is a synchronous response. <JD> --- I guess the case for RosettaNet is more an implementation one: a PIP implementor may interpret the exchange diagrams as having a strict sequence order semantics: so s/he may define a business process that actually expects to receive the Receipt of the previous action, before receiving and processing the Response Action from the same party (I would not blame her for this). Shouldn't then RosettaNet spec be more explicit that this (total) order does not have to be respected? there is some ambiguity here. After reviewing my PIP cases, I agree that order here is actually not required for a sound business semantics. Remains that, if I am not mistaken, there is room for a strict interpretation (and that alone makes a case for ordering...) As for other detailed "ordering" use cases, some have been reported by SonicSoftware in previous mails, I must have lost these. </JD> When using BPSS to model binary collaborations, transitions and guards govern the order in which BusinessTransactionActivities are executed. Typically, one BusinessTransactionActivity would have to be successfully executed before another one is started (except when the fork construct is used). If the RequestingBusinessActivity and/or RespondingBusinessActivity within a BusinessTransactionActivity specifies a timeToAcknowledgeReceipt, then ReceiptAcknowledgments will have to be used and the BusinessTransactionActivity cannot be considered successful until the Receipt Acknowledgment has been returned. With UMM and BPSS, it is possible to design BusinessTransactionActivities that have no business level signals/responses (especially when there are no NRR requirements). In practice, all RosettaNet PIPs have business level signals/responses. Regards, -Arvola -----Original Message----- From: Martin W Sachs <mwsachs@us.ibm.com> To: Arvola Chan <arvola@tibco.com> Date: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:02 AM Subject: Use cases for messageOrdering > >Arvola, > >I hope that you will look over and reply to this morning's thread among >Shimamoto-san, Dan Weinreb, Jacques Durand and me since RosettaNet examples >have been given. > >Are there valid use cases where a sequence of messages within a >conversation is sent without responses but the recipient must receive them >in the order in which they were sent? Why wouldn't business-level responses >be prescribed for such a situation? > >Regards, >Marty > > *************************************************************************** ********** > >Martin W. Sachs >IBM T. J. Watson Research Center >P. O. B. 704 >Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 >914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 >Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM >Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com > *************************************************************************** ********** > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
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