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Subject: RE: [ebxml-msg] Minutes 12/03/01 - Voting Meeting
Yes, I think I am agreeing even though I said otherwise before. However, if the AckRequested flag in the CPA is for the Sender, not the Recipient, then why is it Inconsistent if it does not match at the receiving end? OTOH, if the CPA is always followed, this should never happen. I really don't have an opinion which way this should be. What I do have an opinion about is reducing the possibility of errors. If we can write a spec where it is *hard* to produce an error, then we have done well. The way to do this is to be strict on sending and forgiving on receiving. David. -----Original Message----- From: Dale Moberg [mailto:dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 3:03 PM To: Christopher Ferris; David Fischer Cc: Martin W Sachs; Arvola Chan; ebXML Msg Subject: RE: [ebxml-msg] Minutes 12/03/01 - Voting Meeting +1 -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Ferris [mailto:chris.ferris@sun.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 1:28 PM To: David Fischer Cc: Martin W Sachs; Arvola Chan; ebXML Msg Subject: Re: [ebxml-msg] Minutes 12/03/01 - Voting Meeting David, You missed my point. AckRequested is REQUIRED on ALL messages that want an Acknowledgment, period, regardless of what is in the CPA. The flag in the CPA is for the sender, not the recipient IMO. If the CPA says AckRequested is true and it isn't then this should produce an Inconsistent error IMO. If It says "perMessage" in the CPA and it isn't then the recipient doesn't produce an Acknowledgment. If the CPA says "perMessage" and there is no AckRequested, no Acknowledgment is produced. If the CPA says AckRequested is false and there is an AckRequested then one of two errors can be returned. Either a SOAP MustUnderstand (because the node doesn't understand AckRequested) or an Inconsistent error if it does understand but is inconsistent with the CPA. Cheers, Chris David Fischer wrote: > Yes Chris, that's exactly what I said before. The absence of AckRequested > implies *false*. > > IMO, AckRequested should only appear IF CPA says *perMessage*. Otherwise, > AckRequested should not appear at all -- use the CPA. > > David. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Ferris [mailto:chris.ferris@sun.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 10:58 AM > To: David Fischer > Cc: Martin W Sachs; Arvola Chan; ebXML Msg > Subject: Re: [ebxml-msg] Minutes 12/03/01 - Voting Meeting > > > It must ALWAYS be present when you WANT an acknowledgment. > Its absense implies that you don't want one. > > Cheers, > > Chris > > David Fischer wrote: > > >>Marty, if AckRequested must always appear, then how do I send a message which >>DOES NOT request an Acknowledgment? >> >>David. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Martin W Sachs [mailto:mwsachs@us.ibm.com] >>Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 7:50 AM >>To: David Fischer >>Cc: Arvola Chan; ebXML Msg >>Subject: RE: [ebxml-msg] Minutes 12/03/01 - Voting Meeting >> >> >> >>Some comments below, MWS: >> >> >> > ************************************************************************ ******** > >>***** >> >>Martin W. Sachs >>IBM T. J. Watson Research Center >>P. O. B. 704 >>Yorktown Hts, NY 10598 >>914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287 >>Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM >>Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com >> >> > ************************************************************************ ******** > >>***** >> >> >> >>David Fischer <david@drummondgroup.com> on 12/03/2001 09:43:28 PM >> >>To: Arvola Chan <arvola@tibco.com>, ebXML Msg >> <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> >>cc: >>Subject: RE: [ebxml-msg] Minutes 12/03/01 - Voting Meeting >> >> >> >>Arvola, >> >>If AckRequested is *true* in the CPA, then does the AckRequested element >>have to >>appear? If it MUST appear, then why have it in the CPA? I think the >>Receiving >>MSH must send an Acknowledgment in this case even if AckRequested does not >>appear. Actually, I would prefer that AckRequested MUST NOT appear if the >>CPA >>says *true* or *false*. >> >>MWS: I agree with the last statement. >> >>If AckRequested is *perMessage* in the CPA, then what happens if the >>AckRequested element does not appear? The spec says this means no >>Acknowledgment. The default then is *false* if the CPA says *perMessage*. >> >>MWS: This is a programming error. The MSH should do nothing except forward >>an error indication upward to the middleware/software layer that cares >>about it. >> >>I think we should not have multiple rules about *perMessage*. If a default >>is >>provided in one case, then it should work the same in all cases. Since the >>absence of an Acknowledgment element means *false* then the absence of >>duplicateElimination should also mean *false* and the absence of a signed >>attribute should mean *false* (or in all cases it means take the default). >> >>MWS: The MSH SHALL not guess. There are valid defaults, such as >>specifying >>the value of Ackrequested in the CPA and omitting the element from the >>message. >>Defaults must not be used to paper over software errors. That can cause >>untold >>harm at both ends. >> >>David. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Arvola Chan [mailto:arvola@tibco.com] >>Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 5:05 PM >>To: David Fischer; ebXML Msg >>Subject: Re: [ebxml-msg] Minutes 12/03/01 - Voting Meeting >> >> >>David: >> >>I don't agree with the last sentence in the following paragraph within your >>meeting minutes: >> >> >> >>>PerMessage parameters: Colleen, what parameters have been identified. >>> >>> >>Arvola: >duplicateElimination, AckRequested, AckRequested/signed. Dale: >>perMessage in >CPA means no agreement. Colleen: what about defaults. >>Dale: >>OK. Ian: add to >document, if there is a conflict then generate error / >>define error ? <<next item>>. >Consensus is that perMessage does not >>require item to appear, there may be an >MSH default. >> >>I have been assuming that the AckRequested element must be present in a >>message before the receiver will return an Acknowledgment. The Message >>Service Interface may have a default to allow the application above to omit >>the specification of whether an Acknowledgment is desired. The sending MSH >>must include an AckRequested element in a message if it expects to receipt >>an Acknowledgment for it. >> >>Similarly, the sending MSH must specify an appropriate value for the >>duplicateElimination attribute in the QualityOfServiceInfo element, one >>that >>does not conflict with the specification within the CPA. >> >>Regards, >>-Arvola >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: David Fischer <david@drummondgroup.com> >>To: ebXML Msg <ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org> >>Date: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:51 PM >>Subject: [ebxml-msg] Minutes 12/03/01 - Voting Meeting >> >> >>These are the minutes from Monday's voting meeting. >> >>I thought we achieved consensus on the error code issue concerning >>NotSupported/Inconsistent but talking to some members afterwards, this is >>not >>clear. >> >>Does anyone object to changing the error code on Ping, Pong, MessageStatus, >>duplicateElimination and AckRequested to Inconsistent? This means the only >>thing in the spec with NotSupported is MessageOrder. >> >>Regards, >> >>David Fischer >>Drummond Group >>ebXML-MS Editor. >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription >>manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription >>manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> >> >> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription >>manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> >> >> >>---------------------------------------------------------------- >>To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription >>manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription > manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> > ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
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