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Subject: AW: [ebxml-bp] Closing the gap between MSI and BSI and move on


Hi Dale,
 
So MSI part is as I understand.
 
The BSI part becomes a bit vague. Its abstract, its virtual, its logical, all well and good but at one point it has to become specific.
 
So what we agree is that whatever the BSI is, it will be responsible for BPSS signals.
 
So what is a specific BSI? 
 
o J2EE applications, busses, simple backend application, series of web services, currently ts just about anything ...
 
I can argue contrary that you do not want to give the responsibilities of the BPSS signals to all and everything being part of the BSI. This is the opposite to rip out existing applications or internal data formats.
 
So I see two cases:
 
1) A BSI is anything spread among anything at one party
2) A BSI (or BSH) is a specific component (a ebBP business process engine) which takes on the responsibity of the BPSS signals. A component that is build for ebBPs.
 
With the second case we could close the gap between BSI and MSI.
 
But with the second case we still have not integrated with the actual backend applications, services. With this approach we would at least, have a proper ebXML chain consisting of BSI and MSI.
 
Following private business processes from too far away it seems to me that private business process engines (such as WSBPEIL) are discussed today as a solution for private business processes.
 
If we were at this stage we would still have the gap between the BSI and WSBPEL. That would be the next task. 
 
To come back to the BPSS signals. If a WSBPEL instance knows to communicate with a BSI and vice verca, a WSBPEL instance would know about BPSS signals, such as Acceptance Acknowledgements.
 
So, having a specific BSI (with an interface between BSI and MSI) and an interface between BSI and WSBPEL for example is ONE way to get where we want.
 
Regards
 
Sacha
 
PS: Of course MSH implementations can still be connected straight to their backend applications or service or abstract-virtual BSI ;) as is probably done today.
 
________________________________

Von: Dale Moberg
Gesendet: Fr 04.02.2005 08:31
An: Sacha Schlegel; ebXML BP; ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
Betreff: RE: [ebxml-bp] Closing the gap between MSI and BSI and move on



Hi Sacha,

The BSI concept mainly comes from the ebXML architecture document and the BPSS working area.

The MSI concept was, I think, one that has been worked on from time to time in Messaging and was basically an API for communication between the software component(s) functioning in the MSH role (at a given node) and the software (other middleware or business applications) that needed to communicate with a MSH at that node. [An interface between "levels" of the stack at a node.]  Submitting and being notified of message payloads (along with selected metadata concerning that payload), being notified of exception conditions, and so on were the envisioned functions of the MSI API. Matt and others even submitted materials for an API definition and we found that OAG (or was it OMG?) had drawn up some IDL for an API in this area. Messages on this are probably still in the Messaging list archive. [If you go back several years, you will find other contributions. It is a perennial topic.]

I think that the Messaging TC decided to work on version 3.0 as a higher priority than the API for MSI. That doesn't prevent someone from submitting a draft for TC consideration eventually, though Ian would need to check the process for us in Messaging. I agree with you that someday this needs to get done. At the moment each MSH integration is a customized exercise depending on the deployment environment (EAI or not; if so, what style, etc. etc.)

The BSI as discussed in BPSS and the early Architecture document is IMO an interface at a specific level of the protocol stack, but an interface between the same stack level but at different nodes. It is a virtual (or logical) interfacing whose actual realization is accomplished by using the supporting layers of the stack to carry out its protocol. Abstractly the BSI is accomplished whenever ebXML message exchange carryies out (via its lower protocol levels) a BusinessTransaction (in the BPSS sense). BSI in BPSS involves the "signals" (both positive and for exceptions) that achieve state alignment (including clear failure states).

So BSI is somewhat defined. What more do you think needs to be done for it?

It is true that BSI will be realized by some assignment of responsibilities to software as deployed in some environment. I am not certain that anyone has proposed standardization of its implementation by even saying which roles of software components carry out which BSI related tasks. There are just a whole lot of existing combinations in businesses for these deployment environments, and overall the consensus view has been that standardizing these largely internal configurations would be too controversial to achieve consensus. [A standard which said that businesses had to rip out existing applications or internal data formats or message busses would be probably doomed to sit without any market traction, with at most one large vender supporting it, which would be the vender whose software or platform or language or development IDE followed the standard!] So I am a little dubious that we should try to standardize this area without receiving clear broadly based requirements and commitments from the end user community. Absent their interest, a basis for consensus in standardization among ISVs is most unlikely.


-----Original Message-----
From: Sacha Schlegel [mailto:sschlegel@cyclonecommerce.com]
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 7:32 AM
To: ebXML BP; ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [ebxml-bp] Closing the gap between MSI and BSI and move on

Hi ebXML Message Service team
Hi ebXML Business Process team

I suggest to define an interface between

o MSI and BSI (or MSH and BSH)

and close that gap in the ebXML spec and move on to the next step, from a ebBP view point, to define an interface between

o BSI and private business process engines (or BSH and OASIS WSBPEL for example)

Regards

Sacha

-----------------------------

MSH = Message Service Handler
BSH = Business Service Handler
MSI = Message Service Interface
BSI = Business Service Interface
WSBPEL = Web Services Business Process Execution Language

PS: BSH is to ebXML Business Process what MSH is to ebXML Message Service








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