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Subject: RE: [ebxml-msg] HL7 ORG: Fw: Issues with Web services transport



This most helpful.  I believe your answers goes a long way to addressing this for IHE/XDS.


One further question before I forward this to them.


At NIH we are using multiple CPAs in situations where forwarding and routing is occurring – therefore – the intermediary has a CPA in place between the originator and themselves as well as the CPA between the recipient and NIH.  Clearly this allows for additional controls and aspects about the transport to be contained in these additional CPA(s) and then accessed by CPAid in the envelope. 


Does this potentially offer additional configuration options for the intermediary?  My sense is probably “Yes”?


Thanks, DW


From: Durand, Jacques R. [mailto:JDurand@us.fujitsu.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 4:53 PM
To: David RR Webber (XML); ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
Cc: ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [ebxml-msg] HL7 ORG: Fw: Issues with Web services transport


The document is interesting as it clearly raises the issue of application-level intermediation (contrasting the "service application" with the "worker applications"), for which the SOAP model is only a foundation - and a simplistic one w/r to routing - yet one that should be leveraged.

It shows the need to represent and process differently what we could call "application meta-data"  and application data, the former being intended for the intermediary (more horizontal SOAP headers, e.g. WSA, are probably too low-level here).

An analogy could be the use of "topics" in the publish-subscribe model.


> Does anything in ebMS V3.0 mitigate this?


So I'd say that ebMS3 does (much) better than ebMS2 on this. Both distinguish app meta-data in form of business header elements - including payload manifest - distinct from payload parts, helping an (unspecified)  forwarding function. But when the "worker application"  is wrapped as a Web service deployed on the back-end (as it typically would in an SOA model) the ebMS V3 model is much friendlier to the needed conversion into a service invocation: in V3 the ebMS header being just a SOAP header bloc like any, and leaving the SOAP body free for business payload, can be stripped from the SOAP message by the MSH acting as intermediary. What remains can just be a plain Web service invocation, ready as is to forward (you would never guess it has been an ebMS message...). We have prototyped this at Fujitsu. One issue with ebMS2 is the SOAP body used by the ebMS header, forcing payloads in attachments, and hard to deal with when using end-to-end security (with V3, you could even have security headers that the MSH would not touch,if intended to ultimate destination - V3 Part 2 will be more explicit on this).


The paper also makes a very sound observation regarding cases where the application needs to know authentication credentials as context to its processing ("is this request to this service allowed for this type of client?"). You typically want to deal with this before the request hits the application service or server supporting it, yet this kind of application-level authorization (which is closer to access control) is out of infrastructure scope in the current Web service security model (WS-Security) - and current WSS implementations do not seem to facilitate this. Clearly the application-level intermediation pattern is key to supporting this. I believe a decent support has been proposed in V3 in the "message authorization" section which still leverages WS-Security as much as possible.




From: David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 7:51 AM
To: ebxml-cppa
Cc: ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [ebxml-msg] HL7 ORG: Fw: Issues with Web services transport
Importance: High

Does ebXML CPA address some of these issues?  I believe it might.


Could CPA's between participants provide the missing information - or enough for common uses?


Does anything in ebMS V3.0 mitigate this?


I also think that the idea we've been working on in BCM/ebSOA/BP of a pan-ebxml context mechanism - could also be a next peice - so a shared context could be retained across participants - that summarizes the salient information needed to deliver correctly.


Please let me know so I can reply back the HL7 list with our considerations?


I'm seeing this notion of an Uber-WS infrastructure gaining ground - so you call that Uber-API - and then delivery occurs in the dialect for a partner.


Of course I beleive ebXML provides a B2B superset here that plain WSDL clearly is not able to match.


Thanks, DW

"The way to be is to do" - Confucius (551-472 B.C.)


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(See attached file: Issues with Web Services as a Message Transport Dec 11 2006 R1.pdf)

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