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Subject: RE: [emergency] Groups - EDIT of emergency-CAPv-1.1

Thanks, Tom,

If we can fashion a non-confrontational approach and continue to 
extend the bounds of the agreements that have been forged with ISO 
and W3C with OASIS, that would be good. It would also be good if we 
could develop similar arrangements with other standards bodies as 


At 2:28 PM -0500 3/18/05, Tom Merkle wrote:
>I will bring our "standards royalty" issue to the IEEE 1512 meeting in
>NYC. I have also include Ann Lorscheider (IEEE SC 32 Chairperson) on
>this thread to start the discussion. Perhaps a "professional courtesy"
>no fee arrangement can be worked out.
>Tom Merkle
>CapWIN:        www.capwin.org
>Phone:        (301) 614-3720
>Cell Phone:   (240) 375-1966
>Fax:          (301) 614-0581
>e-mail:        tmerkle@capwin.org
>6305 Ivy Lane Suite 300
>Capital Office Park
>Greenbelt, MD 20770
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 2:22 PM
>To: Paul Embley; 'Rex Brooks'; 'Ham, Gary A'; acb@incident.com;
>Subject: RE: [emergency] Groups - EDIT of emergency-CAPv-1.1
>Thanks for the update, Paul,
>That resolves that issue. I don't know how to go about the IEEE 1512
>issue except that the collaborators I am working with have purchased it
>so it is not a problem for that specific project, but since it has been
>adopted by DOT, where it represents an intersection of DOJ and DHS, as
>well as Emergency Management issues across both CAP and EDXL, I will
>just slog along and see if we (my private group) can devise a reliable
>conversion tool which we can then provide to the larger community that
>will effectively turn IEEE 1512 into CAP-ready XML Schema. Since that is
>what we were planning, to do, it may suffice to remove the obstacle.
>Needless to say, it would be wonderful if the lurker who suggested we
>simply adopt IEEE 1512 looked into the option of providing it to other
>standards bodies.
>And, of course, yes, this group does still need to decide how it uses
>which code tables.
>Thanks again,
>At 1:39 PM -0500 3/18/05, Paul Embley wrote:
>>On September 30, [2003] (incidentally, 10 days after they issued a
>>statement about considering charging royalties for use of their codes)
>>ISO issued the following statements concerning "recently publicized
>>misunderstandings of its current practice and intentions regarding its
>>widely used country, currency, and language codes.
>>      * ISO is to continue with its established practice of allowing
>>free-of-charge use of its country, currency, and language codes from,
>>respectively, the ISO 3166, ISO 4217, and ISO 639 standards, in
>>commercial and other applications.
>>      * There is no proposal currently being considered by ISO to impose
>>charges for use of these codes, including on the World Wide Web and in
>>software applications."
>>The rest of the codes we use in GJXDM (including ANSI D20 and FIPS) are
>>free to use.  ISO was the only one in question.  The statement above
>solves that.
>>As long as codes from FIPS, ANSI, and ISO that we can FIND (sometimes
>>that's a problem) are used, then there is no cause for concern for the
>>GJXDM.  This group will need to decide how it uses which code tables.
>>Paul S. Embley
>>Practitioner Resource Group
>>G&H International Services, Inc.
>>502.695.7733 (office)
>>502.545.0127 (cell)
>>502.695.0055 (fax)
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 9:37 AM
>>To: Ham, Gary A; acb@incident.com; emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
>>Subject: RE: [emergency] Groups - EDIT of emergency-CAPv-1.1
>>I don't have any objections to this practice for design. My concerns
>>1) Where do we get our external code lists/tables? We already know that
>>there will be more than one single source since CBRN is a category unto
>>itself, as are several GJXDM-proxied/imported standards/code lists
>  >(some of which we need to pay for unless there is an agreement between
>>standards bodies that provides for sharing these resources of which I
>>happen to be unaware) and  then there is IEEE 1512 which also entails
>>acquiring three (3) standards. We can't refer to black boxes, after
>>all, not if we wish to perform due diligence, and even if it were
>>possible to extend blind trust for our fellow standards bodies, I would
>>dig my heels in on that for my own peace of mind.
>>2) How do we reliably reference these external code lists/tables? I can
>>guarantee that I will recommend against any proxy mechanism that
>>contains the chokepoints I have already identified, and I don't think
>>we really want to incur the network messaging overhead required to
>>convert and validate 1512 alone, notwithstanding the other little black
>>holes into which our parsers and validators can disappear.
>>My points converge on a conclusion I have been coming to for quite a
>>while now as I explored the twists and turns of these various
>>vocabularies. That conclusion is that we need a reliable way to
>>abstract these code lists out of our work and confine the whole
>>distribution element to a slightly higher level of abstraction,
>>Of course, it is the somehow that has me stumped. All I really know at
>>this point is that if we continue attempting to cover details of
>>vocabularies for every constituency in the distribution header, the
>>darn thing is going to be so complicated as to be inoperable period,
>>let alone interoperable.
>>We have neither the time nor the resources to do that, so we might want
>>to focus on how to solicit aid from the other standards bodies and
>>governmental offices to resolve some of these issues so that we can
>>reliably reference these external code lists/tables and harmonise the
>>top level base or core ontology of Event/Incident Types in such a way
>>that the distribution element only needs to include those references
>>while the particular taxonomies for specific incidents/events that
>>belong to those top level types can safely be relegated to the body of
>>the message.
>>This same advice applies to the simultaneous discussion we are having
>>in regard to the area/areaDesc components.
>>At 8:33 AM -0500 3/18/05, Ham, Gary A wrote:
>>>I agree with Mike, assuming that the actual XML messages remain human
>>>readable (with the possible exception of the polygons.)  Encapsulation
>>>of concerns is a good idea, particularly for unstable categorization
>>>Gary A. Ham
>>>Senior Research Scientist
>>>Battelle Memorial Institute
>>>540-288-5611 (office)
>>>703-869-6241 (cell)
>>>"You would be surprised what you can accomplish when you do not care
>>>who gets the credit." - Harry S. Truman
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Daconta, Michael [mailto:Michael.Daconta@dhs.gov]
>>>Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 7:11 AM
>>>To: acb@incident.com; emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>Subject: Re: [emergency] Groups - EDIT of emergency-CAPv-1.1
>>>Hi Everyone,
>>>In terms of general principles, you must also weigh the maturity of
>>>the specification and the probability for the code tables needing to
>>>be updated. Due to the broad scope of the distribution element, I
>>>believe the probability for changing the code tables is high.
>>>Therefore the principle of "separation of concerns" would win out
>>>(over simplicity) and make external code tables a better choice.
>>>- Mike
>>>Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Art Botterell <acb@incident.com>
>>>To: emergency@lists.oasis-open.org <emergency@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>>Sent: Fri Mar 18 00:06:51 2005
>>>Subject: Re: [emergency] Groups - EDIT of emergency-CAPv-1.1
>>>Kon, I don't suppose you expect to win my support by attacking me
>>>personally... so maybe I'm not clear on what you're trying to achieve
>>>at this point.  However, if you want to change the spec, all you need
>  >>to do is persuade a majority of the TC.
>>>I have a feeling that underlying this may be some sort of general
>  >>stylistic preference for external tables over enumerations.  If so,
>>>maybe we ought to discuss that as a general principal, since we use
>>>enumerations in several places in CAP and in still more in the EDXL
>>>draft.  If not, maybe you could help me understand by clarifying under
>>>what circumstances you'd prefer an enumeration to an external table
>>>and how this circumstance differs from those.
>>>At this point my personal opinion remains that the current formulation
>>>is a valid use of the enumeration facility within XML and the simplest
>>>way to express what we mean... and that simpler is better.
>>>But again, flailing me for not agreeing with you isn't just
>>>unpleasant, it's pointless.  Why not let all points of view be heard,
>>>and then let the TC process decide?
>>>- Art
>>>At 12:05 PM -0800 3/17/05, Kon Wilms wrote:
>>>>On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 10:51 -0800, Art Botterell wrote:
>>>>>     Well, strictly speaking I don't... the burden of persuasion is
>>>>>    the  proponent.  However, I've tried to explain why I don't think
>>>>>    this  change is necessary or appropriate at this time.  Whether
>>>>>    not you  consider mine to be a "good" answer is up to you.
>>   >>
>>>>You've given a lot of 'no' answers but never any solid reasons.
>>>>>     Anyway, now that this has been recast as a 2.0 issue we can
>>>>>  consider
>>>>>    it in the context of EDXL and at a more appropriate time.
>>>>Ah, the push-off. Which is exactly how this concluded the last time I
>>>>brought it up. Except now we actually have a real-life example. What
>>>>a waste of time.
>>>>>     >'Things will not interoperate' doesn't qualify as a valid
>>>>>    (or excuse).
>>>>>     Excuse me?  If interoperability isn't a good answer/excuse, what
>>>>>  is
>>>>>    it we're doing here?
>>>>See my first comment.
>>>>>     Maybe we need to review the purpose of the "category" element:
>>>>>  it's
>>>>>    to provide a simple and predictable taxonomy of events that
>>>>>  automated
>>>>>    systems can use to select an appropriate response to receipt of a
>>   >>>  particular message.  CAP also provides the "event" element to
>>  permit
>>>>>    free-form descriptions, but those aren't predictable enough for
>>>>>  many
>>>>>    implementions to rely on.
>>>>What does a predictable taxonomy of events have to do with a lookup
>>>>table? A lookup table is just a structure for said data, it can't
>>>>any level of complexity besides the fact that you have to implement
>>>>>     >This is right up there with accusing me of using this to push
>>>>>    >implementation issue to the standards level. What's up with
>>>>>     This pattern of casting a professional discussion in personal
>>>>>  terms
>>>>>    is one I've seen increasingly in this TC, and I think it's really
>>>>>    regrettable.
>>>>Then stop doing it. Your comments were out of line. I am not paid to
>>>>on this group and my membership dues are on my own personal dime.
>>>>>     No such general equation is suggested.... but your previous note
>>>>>    struck me, at least, as suggesting pretty clearly that anyone
>>>>>    be able to add values whenever they were ready and that only "if
>>>>>  Dave
>>>>>    needs to be interoperable" would such additions be submitted to
>>>>>    standards process.  If I misunderstood you, I apologize, but if I
>>>>>    have that right then, yes, I believe it could lead to a
>>>>>    loss of interoperability.
>>>>As it is, there is a loss in interoperability because the spec does
>>>>currently have a CBRN category. So this is a moot point. At least
>>>>with abstracting these element lists you keep the core clean and keep
>>>>the lists potentially easily extensible without many code-level
>>>>changes being required.
>>>>Making a change to a table although still out of spec has much less
>>>>of an impact on parsers (by parsers I mean machine) than does making
>>>>a change to the core schema, because by the nature of implementing a
>  >>   >parser for tables you are forced to handle these element
>  >> structures in
>>>>a way that makes it easy to modify if new elements are introduced (as
>>>>opposed to having to handler code at all).
>>>>>     Neither.  I'm just not yet persuaded that there's a substantial
>>>>>    problem here in the first place.  And philosophically I'm
>>>>>    about the potential water-muddying consequences of making
>>>>>  unnecessary
>>>>>    changes.
>>>>If you fail to be convinced then I quite literally give up.
>>>>I have already wrappered what I consider 'bad spec' at the code
>>>>At least I can deal with new elements now as they are introduced, and
>>>>not have to make any changes to my code. I can't say if this is the
>>>>same about other implementations (but that is their problem, right?).
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: emergency-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: emergency-help@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: emergency-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: emergency-help@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: emergency-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: emergency-help@lists.oasis-open.org
>>   >
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: emergency-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: emergency-help@lists.oasis-open.org
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: emergency-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: emergency-help@lists.oasis-open.org
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: emergency-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
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