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Subject: RE: [emergency] Re: Circle and Polygon
Offhand, I would say that including validation checks as a mandatory item in RFPs also makes sense to me. Assuming that good practices will be followed sounds like a train wreck waiting to happen. Making demonstrable, and accurate interoperability with a given set of CRS might give a few vendors heartburn, and make some project managers grumble, but, while it isn't trivial by any means, it aint QUITE rocket science or brain surgery. It may be just a bit more important at the time of response coordination, though. Ciao, Rex At 8:43 AM -0500 6/16/05, Bullard, Claude L (Len) wrote: >Automated emergency systems that 'forget' that >there is a different geo-referencing system in >use by an allied system? It's hard to make >a computer forget; it's easy to make it not notice. > >Software is more likely to not notice a data error >if its designers assume one system holds for all >applications rather than building in validation checks. > >"Without the spatial reference system pointer, we will not be able >to work across jurisdictional boundaries who use different coordinate >systems, or with many legacy data sources." > >Interoperability is a transient state of information >ecosystems. Reliable partners manage transitions >equitably. > >len > > >From: Ham, Gary A [mailto:hamg@BATTELLE.ORG] > >I can state for the record that he military is at least expiimenting >with CAP. It is part of several ongoing trials in this year's Coalition >Waarefare Interoperability Demonstration (CWID) going on this very week. > > >From: David Danko [mailto:DDanko@esri.com] > >I didn't mean to imply that NATO C2 would be using CAP. I just meant >that the military - having probably the most experience passing >coordinates around - has learned that using one CRS works the best for >passing coordinates. Although developed by the military - it's heavily >used outside the military. The International Civil Aviation Organization >(ICAO) has settled on WGS 84 for air navigation systems see >www.WGS84.com and it's the CRS used by GPS. >http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=WGS%2084 > >I have seen it happen many times where people "forgot" or didn't realize >their information was in a different reference system. I was just >looking at this as a communication issue. In an emergency situation one >may not have the time to realize there is a miscommunication and go back >and fix it. > >I agree we need to get the opinions of users - we should also include >some geodesist. I certainly don't know all the uses for CAP. It may very >well be used for high precision positioning where a local system may >work the best - we'll have to see what the users want. > >Dave > > >David M. Danko >GIS Standards >Environmental Systems Research Institute, Inc. >8620 Westwood Center Drive >Vienna, VA 22182-2214 >USA >E-mail: ddanko@esri.com >Tel: 703-506-9515 x 8011 >Mobile: 703-989-1863 >Fax: 703-506 9514 >-----Original Message----- >From: Bullard, Claude L (Len) [mailto:len.bullard@intergraph.com] >Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 5:21 PM >To: Carl Reed >Cc: emergency@lists.oasis-open.org >Subject: RE: [emergency] Re: Circle and Polygon > >1. That suggests that CAP is to be used for NATO C2. >It seems highly unlikely but I may be wrong. Even if so >see 2. > >2. Having a single global coordinate reference is >desirable but cannot be enforced. Is it better to >have the option and it be denoted or to not have >an option and have either implementations that do >not denote their variance or implementations that >cannot use CAP? > >It is usually a bad idea to attempt to enforce >political will through technical standards. It >creates resistance at every level of decision making. >This decision should be made by the stakeholders, so >it is a good idea to get many more opinions from those >who will be using CAP. > >Art says this will remain open to discussion. It will >be wise to post a succinct description to as many of >the stakeholders as can be identified and get their >consensus. OTW, this decision for better or worse >will appear to have been made by the vendors represented >on the WG. If the stakes are as high as Mr. Danko suggests, >then it is worth taking to the users. > >len > > >From: David Danko [mailto:DDanko@esri.com] > >We agreed early on in CAP to stick to one global coordinate reference >system to remove all chance of mis-communication. I think this was/is >the right thing to do. NATO and most military coalitions that need to >interoperate have settled on this method. There have been many deadly >mistakes caused by a misunderstanding of CRSs. > >If there is a requirement to use different reference systems I suggest >they be -in addition to - Or - it be very apparent that a non-standard >CRS is being used. Users should not be able to get to the coordinates >without knowing what CRS is being used. > >Dave > >David M. Danko >GIS Standards >Environmental Systems Research Institute, Inc. >8620 Westwood Center Drive >Vienna, VA 22182-2214 >USA >E-mail: ddanko@esri.com >Tel: 703-506-9515 x 8011 >Mobile: 703-989-1863 >Fax: 703-506 9514 >-----Original Message----- >From: Carl Reed [mailto:creed@opengeospatial.org] >Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 12:42 PM >To: acb@incident.com >Cc: emergency@lists.oasis-open.org >Subject: Re: [emergency] Re: Circle and Polygon > >Art - > >You still appear to be missing the point. We can leave CAP and EDXL with >WGS 84 as the default (but not mandatory!) so that all existing >implementations work and the level of "simplicity" being sought is >maintained. We are suggesting optional elements that would allow folks >to use other than WGS 84 as the only CRS. This provides implementation >flexibility and allows different regions in the world to implement as >they see fit for their region. Cheers > >Carl > > >> On Jun 15, 2005, at 6/15/05 12:12 AM, Renato Iannella wrote: >>> One of other key benefits from reusing GML is their use of spatial >>> reference system pointers. Without the spatial reference system >>> pointer, we will not be able >to >>> work >>> across jurisdictional boundaries who use different coordinate >>> systems, or with many legacy data sources. >> >> Again, I wonder whether that might just be making life unnecessarily >> difficult. As it is we specify a single, global coordinate system, >> and folks who use different ones can handle the necessary conversions. >> >> - Art >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >> generates this mail. You may a link to this group and all your TCs in > >> OASIS at: >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >generates this mail. You may a link to this group and all your TCs in >OASIS >at: >https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >generates this mail. You may a link to this group and all your TCs in >OASIS >at: >https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >generates this mail. You may a link to this group and all your TCs in >OASIS >at: >https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >generates this mail. You may a link to this group and all your TCs in >OASIS >at: >https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >generates this mail. You may a link to this group and all your TCs in OASIS >at: >https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php -- Rex Brooks President, CEO Starbourne Communications Design GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison Berkeley, CA 94702 Tel: 510-849-2309
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